"It's not racism --- it's sarcasm" Topic

It's not good for my already shaky faith in human nature, but most days I look at the Dawghouse to see what gross calumnies TMPers have committed.

Sometimes they have plumbed the depths of human depravity. Sometimes they are simply the victims of editorial misunderstanding.

Today 'Fatman' has been punished for 'racism'. But, reading his comments, it's clear that he has simply taken a swing at the reflexive anti-Chinese bias of the commentator above him. It's a sarcastic retort. It's actually anti-racist. The posts that follows on clearly understand this. It is, as John Cleese said, "Bleedin' obvious".

TMP link

If sarcasm is actually forbidden, let this be made abundantly clear. It will cut TMP postings down considerably, including about 75% of posts from British and Commonwealth contributors.

Okay, 80%.

I have to agree with Senor Squint.
And so do Winston Smith, Officers Toody and Muldoon, Cat Shannon and William Pitt the Eldar.

I saw that too and thought it rather an odd interpretation. So I suppose we should have a Free Fatman! campaign.

'bout right me old campesino sarcasm seems to attract severe penalty under some new unwritten rule.

perhaps cultural differences in understanding/interpretation between the sheriffs and the populace?

The new Editor in charge of discipline has erred in the past regarding interpretation.

We need a sarcasm symbol? Too easy to misinterpret print unless we're all as eloquent and stylish as a Great Victorian Rennaisance Personage.
I thought he got his point across.

Mexican Jack, be careful looking in the dawghouse. Sometimes they throw stuff at you….

What? How can we question the wisdom of Our Dear Leader?

If you will read a little further you will find that he subscribes to the view that Our Dear Leader holds the view that the Chinese stole "Good Old 'Merkin" Technology" (tm).

I have drawn a conclusion regarding this exchange. If I voice them Our Dear Leader may send me for "re-education" too. So everything is Double Plus Good.

If restrictions were not put in place the misunderstanding wouldn't have resulted in anything.

You know, OP, I've been meaning to complain about your implication that Mexicans have squints…

It was definitely a sarcastic refutation of the concept of racism. So free the man.

And I don't think it is racist to imply (or state) that the Chinese steal much or our and other countries technology.

Looking at the un-snipped text of what he got DH'd for…
TMP link
…it's pretty clear that he used terms that (even if used sarcastically) are DH'able. Sarcasm or satire is not a shield for bad behavior.

Tossing around racial slurs is not acceptable no matter how clever you think you are being. What he did is tantamount to using the N-word. Sorry, but I agree with the Editor. I agree with the intent behind what he was trying to say, but perhaps Fatman needs a bit of cooling off to think about how his words sound outside his own meliu.

I was DH'ed once. When I PM'ed the Editor in Chief asking why, his response was that the DH was a result of a complaint by another user. Furthermore, he said to avoid his own biases, he quite simply doesn't question or make judgements about the complaint.

I found this to be entirely a reasonable approach. This avoids TMP from becoming a stump for the editors' opinions. It may seem unfair to the DH'ed from time to time and mistakes are sometimes made, but it mostly works and we all need to remind ourselves that posting in this forums is not an absolute right.

…it's pretty clear that he used terms that (even if used sarcastically) are DH'able. Sarcasm or satire is not a shield for bad behavior.

Tossing around racial slurs is not acceptable no matter how clever you think you are being.

Yes, that's my thinking, too.

…sarcasm seems to attract severe penalty under some new unwritten rule…

It's the standard time.

In view of the present climate, I think resorting to such deplorable epithets is DHable certainly. But then I think that the present climate is a crock….

I am law-abiding to the point of being a geriatric boy scout, so quite often I have chosen to hit the button on what look to me to be quite flagrant violations of the rules (which are generally reasonable, as written).

Sometimes the editor agrees with me. Sometimes he does not. Sometimes I say to myself, "How is that not racist? (sexist, a group attack, anti-Bulgarian, whatever fits the bill). Who thinks you can say that in public without offending people?"

Then I recall that my own sense of reasonable behaviour is a product of my own culture and upbringing, which is not the same as the editor's.

If we could just try to follow Wheaton's Law, we'd all be better off.

Or at least have a little icon that says "May say offensive things due to natural insensitivity /cultural ignorance / actually kind of a jerk – even his mother admits this".

…it's pretty clear that he used terms that (even if used sarcastically) are DH'able. Sarcasm or satire is not a shield for bad behavior.

Guessing you're not a fan of Jonathan Swift either?

… he said swiftly.

Not to beat the tom-toms, but I think you referring to the wrong Swift…

"You know, OP, I've been meaning to complain about your implication that Mexicans have squints…."

@Javelin98.
I always thought the OP name was Jack Squint, and that he was only pretending to be Mexican. : )

There is a standard theme on Ultramodern board that foreigners of an "inferior race" are not capable of original and/ or innovative designs. They MUST have copied from the Good Old US of A to have come up with that widget.
Farman was throwing it back in the OP's face. Crudely.

'80%'

'Then I recall…'

Nice one Jack!

There is a quote that accurately describes the purposes behind the TMP Dawghouse

It's not what you look at that matters,
it's what you see.
Henry David Thoreau

The fun never ends over on the 'Ultramoderns' board.

this is why I keep campaigning for a sarcasm emoticon

Didn't we have a "rolling eyes" emoticon once?

Perfect TMP logic – expressing racist sentiments is fine, it's just using bad words that isn't….

…expressing racist sentiments is fine…

Except that nobody did that.

Never ascribe to racism that which can be ascribed to jingoism.

More of a general observation, although implying that anything the second biggest economy in the world produces *must* be a knock off is pretty dubious….

…expressing racist sentiments is fine…

Except that nobody did that.

If NOBODY did that, why is the DH charge for Fatman "racism"?

As always.
I blame the French.

As always.
I blame the French.

Finally! someone gets it!

WInston,
Racism might not be the right term, but certainly "using racist or inappropriate language" would be an appropriate title.

I'm sure it's a common analogy, but think of being in someone elses living room. Even if it's just in jest/sarcasm/irony and even if your overall message is positive, dropping either of the N words for Black or Japanese people, the C word for a lady, the F word for fornication, etc, etc is just not acceptable in many places, this being one of them.

Do the crime, do the time.
Besides, a 4 day muzzling is a pretty light spank.

The 2nd responder to that post should have been dawghoused, not Fatman. Fatman was only pointing out the idiocy of 49mountain's remark.Another unfair application of "the rules."

P.S. If I get dawghoused for this contrary to Bill's ideology post, no biggie, I've got two hounds who'll keep me company during my sentence. Been busy at work and need to spend some time with them anyway.

"There are only 2 things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch!"

having read the incriminated post..maybe it can really labelled under "sarcasm"..which, for me, is a kind of actitude typical of Anglosaxon jojes..and which, to a certain extent, i must confess that i really like…said that if Fatman labels, also if only in a joke, the Asiatic people as "monkeys" ..sincerly, how can he avoid to be dawghoused and then accused of racism!.???..
a similar episode occured here in Italy during an official speech fromthe Chairman of our Soccer League..the intention of this important person was essentially to blame the Italian Clubs trend to buy players (also very young) from abroad instead of giving chances to young Italian players and, by this way, he explained the crisis of our National Team and Clubs..but he expressed such concept with a kind of language/jokes..quite rude, that could'nt avoid to be, at the end, sanctionated as "racist" also because it was expressed in public…i think Fatman did the same.and deserved, at the end, the same consequence

Bill McHarg wrote:

Not to beat the tom-toms, but I think you referring to the wrong Swift…

?

Dean Swift surely he was a quarter back.

Jonathan Swift…Dean of St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin.
He may have played quarter back for Notre Dame as well as writing satire.

When you have elevated a thing to the status of a God, sarcasm will always be vicious attacks no matter how light hearted or good natured. The only response to this sarcasm is then obliteration and anihilation of the sarcastic.

That's the lad Gwydion. He wrote a travel book too.

Ah! The original script for the Little and Large Show!

And now to eat our young. Aptly as Otto calls for the death penalty.

OSchmidt,
Sorry, but I don't buy that. The response/punishment was not to the use of sarcasm, but rather to the words used. That's the important thing. There are some words and phrases that are simply not appropriate in certain milieus.

The response to his words wasn't "don't you dare be sarcastic". The response was essentially "take 4 days in the doghouse to use your god-given (if we're going to get religious about it) intellect to find a way to be sarcastic/satirical with more appropriate language."

Dear Ordinary Bass

Perhaps. But I was speaking about Terrament.

So please rewrite the phrase which offends you in a way that would not be dawghausable.

So what you are saying is that we cannot show contempt for contemptable people, Or we can call people scum-sucking lying S.O.B's so long as we say that in a nice way.

Ah, I see.

Gosh! Isn't satire complicated?

It seems sarcasim is a European thing, americans seems to have a huge problem getting it, and even when they kida get it, they don't like it.

Mabye its the same east of europe to. Mabye Europe is the glowing becon of sarcasm. I do think it got exported to the Aussies and Kiwis, to a lesser extent the canadians, but when the 13 colonies became independent they also lost thier complex sense of humor, (sarcasm beeing the most complex of all types of humor) They were left with fart jokes and clowns.

I thought fart jokes were German.