R Lee S | 12 Nov 2014 12:38 p.m. PST |
This isn't a question about the morality of recasting. I doubt anyone here will argue the point that it's anything but wrong. My question is more on a individual level. There is a certain website some say might, some day, rival Amazon and Ebay. I've never really though much about this website before but they reached some kind of mile stone the other day and I was curious about it so i decided to have a looks see. I found many hobby related items for sale well below market value. Please don't ask me to share a link as I don't want to send additional customers to them as these items are obviously recasts. What stuck me was the number of people openly selling illegally copied items. And I was wondering a few things. On an individual level if you where playing against someone who confided in you that they bought there army, entirely or in part, from re-casters what would you do? stop playing and make a scene? finish the game but never play with them again? Ask were they got them so you could get them on the cheap too? would it matter if they were someone you just met or if you have been playing with for years? Do hobbyist have any responsibility to police our hobby on a individual basis or is it live and let live? This hasn't happened to me and personally I don't know how I would react if I knew I was playing against someone who was using recasts. I'd like to think I'd take the moral high ground but in the moment of enjoying the hobby would I prosperously ruin it for everybody involved? Anyway I was just wander what you guys thought. I've done a google search most people agree re casting is abhorrent but with the internet being what it is do you think people would act differently in real life face to face with a person who felt differently about it. What would you do? |
Frothers Did It And Ran Away | 12 Nov 2014 12:53 p.m. PST |
I'd express my disappointment to the person involved and explain that what they had done was wrong. And I'd refuse to play against their "stolen" army. Unless malefactors are told they're in the wrong they're essentially being told they're in the right. Community standards should be enforced and since we can't use force like the government can ostracisation is really the only way. |
JezEger | 12 Nov 2014 1:37 p.m. PST |
If you can tell they are recasts I would assume they are the usual badly cast blobs. If so, ask your opponent why he wasted his money on such trash when he could have bought quality stuff for a bit more. Given the long life and replay value of figures, saving a few bucks over quality is stupid. However, what if he is using 'not' figures, or ripped off IP like Chapterhouse. I see no difference between copying someones work as a mini or copying their idea. Play 40K with generic aliens and future looking soldiers fine, play it with obvious Space Marine copies, not so much. |
javelin98 | 12 Nov 2014 1:40 p.m. PST |
My personal philosophy on recasting is simple: Don't. |
dsfrank | 12 Nov 2014 1:53 p.m. PST |
I would certainly let the player know why it is wrong to do what they are doing (even if it is sticking it to the evil empire of GW- easily the most recast stuff out there is GW) – if it was someone I'd just met, I'd be likely not to play with them again – if it was a long time friend, I wouldn't quit playing with them but I would taunt him mightily – given that the company you are talking about is in China & China has lax IP infringement laws – it is doubtful that we will see anything other than an increase in these shennanigans |
Doug MSC | 12 Nov 2014 2:32 p.m. PST |
I would refuse to play with their figures in a game but first I would ask them where they got them at such a cheep price and when I found out, I would alert the manufacturer so they could follow up with lawyers, police, etc. |
Mardaddy | 12 Nov 2014 2:33 p.m. PST |
How much grey area is there – For example, I have a bunch of 40k IG Kasrkins, and I am missing backpacks for a handful. If I press-cast some backpacks with green stuff & field them, have I become persona-non-grata? It is not an "exact" copy, it is a press-cast. If I added some other bibs and bobs, would that take it out of the "no-no" mindset? Or if a friend designs folding cardstock replica's of Sci-Fi tanks & APC's to use when playing his army instead of buying them, should he be ostracized? What if the replica's are missing certain components that take it out of the realm of that game, but they are clearly, overall-design, FROM that game? (like a hovercraft being modeled with tracks) At what point are they no longer infringement, but classified as "kitbashed" proxies? |
elsyrsyn | 12 Nov 2014 2:41 p.m. PST |
At what point are they no longer infringement, but classified as "kitbashed" proxies? There are definitely some shades of grey in the "for my own personal use" area, as you point out, but they are irrelevant in this context, since people are SELLING their recasts. Doug |
OSchmidt | 12 Nov 2014 2:41 p.m. PST |
This is a touchy area only because of the moral lassitude of the person who had them. I probably wouldn't say anything, and I would not make a scene. I would still play with him, but his standing with me would drop tremendously. |
JezEger | 12 Nov 2014 2:47 p.m. PST |
Mardaddy… my take, for what its worth. Karskins, no problem. You are making them complete and aren't gaining financially from it, plus the original company didn't lose the sale. If a wheel falls off my model airplane and I lose it to the carpet monster, I would copy the other one. If your friends copies a complete Leman Russ so as not to buy one, he is cheating. Don't care what he made it out of. Its not his ip to copy. Plus, if he is using them to represent GW products, then he could be giving the impression that GW products are of that quality. GW wouldn't be too happy about that, although they would never find out, it is their right to protect their brand quality. If you take a hovercraft and make it into a tracked vehicle, you are kit bashing. Nothing wrong with that. You cannot however cast 50 jet bikes and make them into trikes and then sell them. |
The Tin Dictator | 12 Nov 2014 2:52 p.m. PST |
Kitbashing is typically a one-off thing. Generally for your own use. And you usually buy the kits that you are bashing. Recasting isn't a one-off thing. You get hundreds of figures from a single mold before it burns out. So you buy one and then cast 500. "I" see a difference. |
Doctor X | 12 Nov 2014 3:26 p.m. PST |
I would not be taking any stand on playing someone with recasted figures. I would also feel absolutely no obligation to police this to any degree. There are a lot more important issues I have to deal with on a daily basis than this. If someone else would want to carry the torch on it I wouldn't have a problem either. |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 12 Nov 2014 4:09 p.m. PST |
I would shake my finger with disapproval and 'tsk tsk' the person who knowingly bought recasted figures because they bought from thieves. It's the same as buying pirated DVD's. There's no justification for it whatsoever. The ethics of such persons are suspect. OTOH I was guilty of buying some Eldar Jetbikes a Russian Ebay vendor casted (not recast, since GW never released it) based on a Jes Goodwin design from years back which never saw production (pics below). I can't stand the old chopper style jetbikes and gave in. It is an IP infringement since the design is Jes's and he was not compensated, but no GW model was bought and a resin cast made from it. Still, as JezEger says, stealing an idea is just as bad like what Chapterhouse is doing and getting away with. So even though I have never bought any other recasts I guess for me to judge others could be seen as hypocritical and the pot calling the kettle black. Jes Goodwin Prototype: link Russian copy based on Jes's design:
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GoneNow | 12 Nov 2014 4:55 p.m. PST |
This hobby was founded by recasters. Wells, Featherstone, etc. They all mention in their books of using recasted figures. I don't care one way or the other if your toys are store bought or cloned in your garage. Just don't clone them and try to sell them to me. That is all I worry about. |
Tgerritsen | 12 Nov 2014 6:58 p.m. PST |
Since I don't cast, and thus can't recast, and I buy items direct from the manufacturer, I don't have a dog in the hunt. However, what if you recast 'not' figures? The person casting the 'not' figure, already stole the IP, does recasting a 'not' figure make a double negative? I am constantly amazed that people who are so angry at recasters won't bat an eyelash at buying a 'not' figure (to be clear, I'm not talking about proxies, or repainting something that is similar so that it can serve as a 'not' figure- but there are a lot of manufacturers who blatantly sell minis they have no rights to the IP for.) |
goragrad | 12 Nov 2014 7:51 p.m. PST |
I am not entirely sure, but I have strong suspicions that some of the minis in my collection are 'recasts.' Most Minifig 15s have a figure code on the base (a feature I like). As molds deteriorated these can be hard to read or even partly obliterated due to mold slippage, etc. A few of the figures I have picked up on ebay over the years have smooth bases with no sign of a code. Additionally there is some mold slippage and heavy flash. Now I have some old Minifig, Donnington, FreiKorp, and other minis that also have flash and slippage problems, but coupled with the complete lack of a figure code, it certainly makes me suspect recasting. Now when I received the figures I usually did a quick count and inventory and then put them up. Thus it has been years since I bought many of these and complaining to the seller would be difficult if not impossible. Additionally a significant number of the minis I have obtained off ebay were misidentified by the seller. I have quite a few Asgard/Viking Forge minis that were sold as being Minifigs. Same with other manufacturers. Probably as a result of the minis having been purchased secondhand by the fellow who sold them to me. Not every gamer checks out their minis through the manufacturer's website. I will eventually paint the suspect minis up and put them on the table. At this time I have no conclusive proof that they are recasts, and tracking down the possible recaster would be impossible. |
Frostie | 12 Nov 2014 11:13 p.m. PST |
Too add oil to the fire……what about recats of figures that are no longer commercially available or supported by their original maker? ie Ral Patha Battlesystems 15mm fantasy, Venaxia 15mm or everyone's favorite GW Epic? |
Marc the plastics fan | 13 Nov 2014 6:42 a.m. PST |
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Doug MSC | 13 Nov 2014 7:19 a.m. PST |
I was once alerted to an individual who was re-casting some figures from one of the companies in England that I used to handle in the States for them. The company in England sent a cease letter from a lawyer to them and I pursued them legally here. They immediately stopped their game and we were able to correct the matter. Most gamers don't realize that most companies are not making large profits in this business and re-casters can drive a company out of business if they pursue this thievery. I have no problem with gamers taking a figure and adding things to it or changing arms on figures they purchased, etc., however, if they start casting them with the items built onto a figure they purchased, then it should be pursued by law. I have bought numbers of figures from companies for my own armies and have cut heads of or filed down things or added things to the figures for my own armies but did not cast any up after I converted them. I bought the original figures and just converted them. The company was paid for each figure I bought and then I converted them into what I wanted. Casting the figures up is a form of stealing money out of the pockets of companies that sometimes are just trying to survive. There can be all kinds of trouble arising for the person found out doing this and word does get out in our small hobby. |
ITALWARS | 13 Nov 2014 7:20 a.m. PST |
and what to do if someone live in a kind of "criminal country" like mine…and perfectly know, as majority of toys soldiers buyer here, that, from years, one of the major sellers here in Italy, internationally reknown, sold piratised copies from many UK/USA manufactures and also copied the ones i produced in the past…….and that, having, in the past told the affair to some UK manufactures "victims" of this criminal issue ..those manufactures did'nt care a bit about that..maybe to continue to sell their few product (best saying samples) to the above mentioned guy? |
Doug MSC | 13 Nov 2014 9:35 a.m. PST |
If a company doesn't care if their figures are pirated, there is not much you can do. |
Razor78 | 13 Nov 2014 11:06 a.m. PST |
JR miniatures for years used HO scale train buildings in their Stalingrad line, damaged them and then molded and sold them. So shouldn't everyone quit playing with their stuff? One example: link
link |
Doug MSC | 13 Nov 2014 4:00 p.m. PST |
Like I said, if a company doesn't care that they are being ripped off and they allow it, then it wouldn't bother me to play with their stuff and even buy it. |
Razor78 | 14 Nov 2014 5:05 a.m. PST |
And the question remains when you create something from other stuff at what point does it "become" your IP? If I buy a model building for example and do extensive altercations (such as JR did) is it now "mine"? Or if I buy windows from a company and make my building is it still "their IP" as I've used their stuff in my building? If I use arms or weapons from one model to create my own complete figure is it mine to copy? Does anyone know if there is an "accepted" ratio of what percentage of a product can be resourced for it to remain yours? |
ITALWARS | 14 Nov 2014 5:19 a.m. PST |
once i heard 20%…. but there is a huge grey zone..aiming probably toward total disappearance of copyright… for example how to explain the "copied" appearance of miniatures from BUM in Spain..they show at every major seller's site and are present in shops…could it be possible that the guy obatained license to cast their subject and label them BUM ..from such many manufactures..? |
By John 54 | 16 Nov 2014 11:03 a.m. PST |
I was at a party in a flat in Nottingham in the late Eighties, I think, chatting to a well know GW designer. I mentioned I painted a lot of their stuff, and, next day, we met up, and he gave me a lot of new, drop-cast Space Marine Traitor Terminators. All pre-production models, really nice, with lots of body/head variants, different weapon arms, all sorts of great stuff. These eventually weren't released, but I still have a bag full of them. Could I sell them on E-Bay? as they were never released, and are drop-cast one-offs? Just a grey thought! John |
DanWW2 | 17 Nov 2014 9:51 a.m. PST |
Over the years I've spent a not so small fortune on GW Lord of the Rings figures. Twice I've reported a seller offering obvious recasts both to eBay and to GW. GW didn't even bother to reply either time, and now not only is the original seller still selling the large batches, but the recasts are 'trickling down' through other sellers, making them harder to spot. To exacerbate the situation, GW have discontinued much of the LOTR line while the Hobbit films are still being released and demand is still high (£60 or more for some rare single characters on foot on the second hand auction market), so collectors can no longer legitimately complete their collections from GW. My view is that GW have failed to protect me as a consumer, and have failed to protect my investment in their miniatures by not tackling recasts that devalue my collection (as potential buyers would be wary of the most recast, loose figures I have), so frankly, in the case of GW recasts, I wouldn't say or do anything. |
DanWW2 | 17 Nov 2014 9:55 a.m. PST |
Over the years I've spent a not so small fortune on GW Lord of the Rings figures. Twice I'vs reported a seller offering obvious recasts both to eBay and to GW. GW didn't even bother to reply either time, and now not only is the original seller still selling the large batches, but the recasts are 'trickling down' through other sellers, making them harder to spot. To exacerbate the situation, GW have discontinued much of the LOTR line while the Hobbit films are still being released and demand is still high (£60 or more for some rare single characters on foot on the second hand auction market), so collectors can no longer legitimately complete their collections from GW. My view is that GW have failed to protect me as a consumer, and have failed to protect my investment in their miniatures by not tackling recasts that devalue my collection (as potential buyers would be wary of the most recast, loose figures I have), so frankly I wouldn't say or do anything. |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 17 Nov 2014 10:55 a.m. PST |
My view is that GW have failed to protect me as a consumer, and have failed to protect my investment in their miniatures by not tackling recasts that devalue my collection (as potential buyers would be wary of the most recast, loose figures I have), so frankly I wouldn't say or do anything. There's not much GW can do if the recaster is in Russia, and trying to shut these illegitimate vendors down on Ebay is like playing 'whack a mole.' You take one down and another will take its place. But it's probably a matter of cost-benefit. The benefit of going after every one of these 'small potatoes' isn't worth the time, effort and expense. |
DanWW2 | 17 Nov 2014 12:45 p.m. PST |
I appreciate that there are difficulties in policing a globalised market, but it wouldn't take much for an intern/ tea boy/ office goblin to be given the weekly task of flagging up recasted GW IP on eBay and getting the listing removed- and in my case, I'd done that for them and they didn't even send any acknowledgement. All I can suggest is that everyone reports recasted items they spot on eBay in the hope that the volume of reports might force them to remove listings, as they are actually facilitating fraud by allowing such items to be sold via eBay. I don't hold out much hope though, as they are taking a percentage of every listing and sale. |
Mute Bystander | 02 Dec 2014 4:49 p.m. PST |
Correct me if I am wrong – frequently I fear – but doesn't Ebay (possibly conveniently) require the IP holder to complain before acting? |
DanWW2 | 03 Dec 2014 4:07 p.m. PST |
Quite possibly- but, as I said, I did flag the recasts up to GW directly twice. |
Guinny | 10 Dec 2014 12:11 p.m. PST |
DanWW2 – who did you contact at GW? I've gone through the links on their legal page a couple of times and always had replies |
jaxs the man | 10 Apr 2015 11:28 p.m. PST |
Found two US traders that copied my miniatures an have done this for the past 3 years I have the sole rights to all my range no rights have been sold to anyone. to catch them out I had a friend buy some for me over their then send them to me in the UK. tut tut I will be naming an shaming these traders after my lawyer has finished the copy right court case paper work ect. To find a US lawyer to take the case an know what they are doing was easy as I'm in the UK. to prove these traders done this was very very easy like walking to a shop details will follow after case is closed .also I will be contacting trade shows An wargaming events they have listed to attend for the past year an a bit to see if they want traders like this to attend there events. updates to follow in the next few weeks |