"Dealer Area versus Wally's Basement.. Why overlap at all?" Topic

I am curious as to why there is any overlap at all between the Dealer's area and Wally's basement at Fall In, or any other HMGS con. It seems to me that the dealers a) might not want the competition and b) might want to actually buy something themselves!

As a dealer in the past, I noticed there is VERY little traffic while Wally's basement is open… which I found frustrating, especially since I had to man my underutilized booth while I actually wanted to go to Wally's basement.

My suggestions is to have Wally's Basement go each night from 7 until 10… This way, ALL attendees would be able to spend their money from 9 to 6 at the dealer's AND 7 to 10 at Wally's, meaning those involved in tournaments could most likely get a chance to buy stuff at least once.

In addition, since there would now only be two sessions of Wally's (FRI nite and SAT nite) there should be NO limit on the number of tables available at Wally's. If someone wants two or three, they should be able to rent two or three. People cannot buy what they cannot see! Nor should Wally's "sell out" like they do on Saturday morning. Still, less work for theorganizers… Two paid sessions instead of three. . .

Or is this just crazy talk? I'd love to read your comments… And thanks as always to the organizers who do a terrific job.

Daniel

The dealer's hall definitely empties out when the flea market is open.

I think that is a great idea as the flea market also would not conflict with games. I've run games that started when the flea market opened and either had players not show up or show up late because they wanted to check out the flea market. In addition I've seen games I really wanted to play but had a table reserved for the FM and so couldn't make the game. This would fix both problems (dealers hall & games).

You would lose all the day visitors that don't hang around after dinner.

A lot of the sellers in WB spend all that money in the dealer area.

A lot of the people shopping in WB wait to spend in the dealer area until they check WB's offerings. It would KILL Friday in the dealer hall.

HMGS would not be able to sell multiple sessions to WB during the day.

Sounds logical, so clearly "crazy talk".

Who the heck is Wally? (rhetorical question – I do get it)

Sounds like he has a lot of stuff to sell. ;-)

My understanding from many of the dealers is that by 6pm they want to get off their feet, go eat dinner and just relax. I can understand that after a long day.

There is no reconciling the flea market with the dealers, but he later start and earlier finish help a bit. My own experience is the big flea market is the Saturday morning one, not the afternoon session.

Bad idea for me and my friends. We only attend for the day
(Friday) and get a flea market table in the afternoon. The money I make at the flea market is usually the only money I have to spend in the dealer area. We would not stay 7 to 10
PM to sell in the flea market.

flicking wargamer and wildman, why would we lose day attendees? In this plan wouldn't they have an added incentive to stay longer? It seems to me if you come up just for the day, the longer the day, the better "return" on your trip.

And historygamer, I don't understand… the dealers can still go home at 6 if they want to…

And, as an added bonus, people could come back after dinner and still buy stuff! What's not to like?

I drive down just for the day. I like to do the 2 WBs hit the dealer hall and go home. Maybe have dinner with a couple of friends once in awhile.

Daribuck,
That is a brilliant idea; lucid and well thought out, ie, it will never fly.

At Fall In, the dealer hall is open 18 hours and you've got a flea market competing with it for 12 of those hours.

Talk about overkill.

The dealer hall is busy from noon till 1:30ish on Friday, then it empties out from 2:00 till 5:00, then gets busy again for about an hour or so.

I did most of my business on Friday, so not sure how a Friday night session would "kill sales in the dealer hall on Friday", that makes zero sense, as in none.

There are more tumbleweeds than attendees in the dealer hall during that Friday afternoon session.

Saturday morning is busy for about an hour, then it empties out again for the morning session, then gets busy after that session, then is dead again in the afternoon, then it gets a bit busy before six as many day trippers make one last dealer hall run.

You can set your watch to it.

One of the dealers shut his booth down Saturday and went up to the flea market; he came back and told me there were over 200 people in there shopping; at the same time in the dealer hall, we counted 27 people in there shopping.

IMO, the flea market shoud run at night Friday and Saturday for two reasons; one, not to compete with dealers and two, oh gee, I don't know, maybe some of us would like to buy some items in the flea market.

I'd have the dealer hall open 10 to 5 Friday and Saturday and have the flea market run from 6 to 9 both days, that gives people a one hour window to get in there and set up/buy stuff and then go to dinner, or go to dinner at 5:00 and then stampede into the flea market.

Day trippers who come in on Saturday can shop in the dealer hall during the day and then hit the flea market at night and then go home, not sure what the problem is there.

Sorry, I am sure there are hobbyists in there selling unwanted items at bargain basement prices and then running to the dealer hall and spendng that money; others are professional flea marketers who have new, shrink wrapped items, or others who have tons of painted armies and painted terrain that they bring to the shows.

I know of at least two full time toy soldier dealers who are at every flea market session for all three HMGS conventions and the only place they run to after the flea market is the bank.

Two of my customers who attended the flea market saw sellers in there swiping credit cards on those portable devises that you plug into your smart phone; knew that was going to start happening at some point.

Someone in another thread commented at how light the dealer hall was with a hole in the middle of it; keep running 12 hours worth of flea market sessions and you'll see less and less dealers showing up, several of them were not pleased this convention.

Not sure what the problem is with having two flea market sessions Friday and Saturday night, then go ahead and do the free Sunday thing; at the end of the day, you only lose one session.

It's a simple sollution where everyone wins, but again, it will never happen.

As another option. Run both Wally's basement and the dealer room in the same location. When I was at Historican last Summer there clearly was more then enough room for both.

Double G: +1

First, I am not a Dealer.

The Flea Market should not be run where it COMPETES with the Dealer Hall for sales.

Running both in the same location at the same time, again, sets them both in competition with each other. Dealers pay for tables at an obviously much higher rate than those in the Flea Market but the line of purpose has become so blurred that we now have people in the Flea Market, who for all intents and purposes, 'are' Dealers, selling new, unopened merchandise and conducting credit card transactions.

I've seen people advertise prior to what they will be bringing to the Flea Market and taking 'advance orders'! Will some of them make money and then drop a part of that in the Dealer Hall-maybe-but I can see no logical reason why the Flea Market should be open concurrently with the Dealer Hall.

I'm assuming that HMGS still funds it's cons primarily with Dealer Hall Table Sales/Space. Given the high fees paid I think it's ridiculous to ask them to compete with the Flea Market. At the very least the rules for the market should be enforced.

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

RE: selling new, unopened merchandise and conducting credit card transactions.

The former is allowed, the latter is not! (Wally's basement rules, from the program, Page 12, 2/3rds down….) If I bought out someones unsold inventory, do I have to become a dealer to sell it?

And I have no problem with advanced advertising for either Wally's or the dealer's area. Do any dealers have an issue with that or the above issue?

BTW: I think having the dealer area and the flea market at the same place is NOT a good idea, even if they are at different times. Most dealers want to lock up their stuff at the end of the day.

Interestingly enough, the program specifically states

"It (Wally's) is not intended to compete with or provide an alternate area to the commercial vendor area…"

although clearly, that is exactly what it does.

Every convention it is the same old story…

Thanks for your input.

Daribuck,
As far as new, unopened merchandise; understood that people buy packs/books/rulesets/board games and then have a change of heart and want to sell them, so new/unopened items in that instance is fine.

But a stack of them 9 feet high with numerous multiples of things is not IMO.

The fleamarket, like many other things in life, started out with the best of intentions, but there are those out there who see an opportunity and keep pushing the envelope as far as they can, give them a finger, they take the hand.

I've been attending all three HMGS East conventions for close to 20 years and it has come completely off the rails IMO.

RE: But a stack of them 9 feet high with numerous multiples of things is not IMO.

I agree.

I have customers who tell me they fund a portion of their trips and dealer hall purchases with their sales in the flea market.

They are the classic example of how the flea market provides a benefit to the convention as without it, it would be tough for them to attend, so for them, I am glad it works like that and they benefit.

And like I said, I'd like to get in there myself and buy items. One year when the convention was at the VFCC, the flea market was right across from the dealer area and I had a chance to get over there and buy some nie items for my 20mm ACW collection.

So myself and other dealers would love to be able to get over there, but myself and others are one man shows and short of shutting down our booths, we can't under the present format.

Run it at night.

Well…. both good and bad ideas here. Some folks only see it from their side of the coin though.

One must think logistics…

1. First off… there is only room for at most 80 tables at our current venue… so tables MUST BE LIMITED.

2. Tables MUST have limits.. one per customer. It isn't about selling out, it is about offereing as many folks as possible a chance ot sell.

3. Logistically… day trippers must be a part of the equation… as must dealers AND the GM's. I agree completely. My remedy to this is to have 2 paid sessions and one Sunday free session. Sunday will be the morning, like usual. Friday and Saturday are undecided… One will be at regular times and the other at night. Being that Saturday is the biggest day for day trippers, Saturday will probably remain saturday morning. Friday for Fall-In! 2014 will be a "midnight madness" flea market.

One might ask.. "What about the third or missing WB session". To this I say…. Friday and sometimes Saturday afternoon WB sessions can be pretty light… Why not combine them and let folks know VERY EARLY in the game that this is being done so that they can plan for it. This would ensure a FULL WB EVERY SESSION… 80 tables 2 sessions… always sold out…. instead of sparsely populated tables for 2 afternoon sessions. In this way, HMGS isn't losing money. Logistically, this is ideal as folks can plan better to spend their time… face it foks… the dealer areas don't change. They might sell out, but they don't change… while WB changes with every session… differnt folks with different things to sell. Most of us spend some time TRYING to at least get to the beginning of each WB session to "check it out" for the deals… and we feel let down if we miss it… Well, by reducing the number of sessions, you guarantee a full WB AND gamers can plan for more games… instead of waiting in lines to get into the various WB sessions.

This does solve some logistic problems.

1. day trippers, according to current stats biggest day is Saturday… allowing WB sat morning also allows these folks to sell and then take their fist full of dollars to the dealer hall to spend. You are a fool if you are a dealer and think "only a few" folks do this… MOST peopel in th eflea market are there to sell old stuff to buy new stuff in the dealer hall… it is true, I think there are a few "stores" down there, but proving it is difficult at best AND, like ALL of the dealers who said they woudl like to set up a WB table… they openly said they would sell stuff from their discount bins, overstock, etc…

To that I say; GO FOR IT…. I will tell you that it is a fool indeed who buys in WB for 90% retail… It is mind boggeling how often I walk around WB and see cool stuff, in shrink wrap… at a 5% mark down… huh??? Same folks each session… I don't understand how they make money as I can usually go to the dealer hall and get the same stuff at 10% or more off?????

2. Most dealers are here for the whole show… having the PM session on Friday allows dealers a chance to sell wares Friday night. Again.. this stuff won't sell if it isn't priced to move.

Some food for thought…

1. dealers pay $95 USD per table for the weekend, for 18 hours, WB folks can, at best get 12 hours at $75. USD. ($25 for each paid session with the 3 free hours on sunday)… still, including them in…

Dealers pay $5.28 USD/hr and WB pay $6.25 USD. that puts that myth to rest doesn't it…?

AND… WB can only get one table. Yes there are many other ways to slice this… share table space and costs, dealers have net costs, trailer costs, etc.. so do some flea market folks too.

2. EVERYONE deserves the chance to get into WB… (provided that they are members)… this is great!!! Dealers have personal gaming stuff that is totally unrelated ot what they sell in their stores… they should also have a chance to sell it in WB… I think we can all agree upon that. The really cool thing here is… MANY dealers are NOT HMGS members… we do not require that… BUT… many also are… so if they want to get a WB table, well then… they must have a HMGS membership too… 2 birds with one stone so to speak… we gain members form the ranks of non member dealers.

As I said at the show… I like this and think it is a very fair resolution. This would only put the 3 hour session sat morning in competition with the dealers. You may try to argue that the sunday WB free session competes with the vendor hall.. I will say you are crazy… On Sunday, all I care about is getting out of there and getting to the dealer hall to spend any extra money I find in my wallet… I might "pop" my head into the balcony about WB, but really, we all know, mostly.. folks ar elooking to take their money and spend it in the vendor hall before their wives find out about it….

Well?

Good idea but the "Me and my friends that only come down during the day" crowd will never accept it….You are no longer catering to their whims…so they will get upset….

I can only do so much…. I will try… but I do absolutley do like the "non competitive" approach AND the night time WB….

For me, logistically… it is getting folks to staff the session so late at night.

"1. dealers pay $95 USD USD per table for the weekend, for 18 hours, WB folks can, at best get 12 hours at $75. USD USD. ($25 for each paid session with the 3 free hours on sunday)… still, including them in…Dealers pay $5.28 USD USD/hr and WB pay $6.25 USD USD. that puts that myth to rest doesn't it…?"

No, it doesn't when you factor in that most dealers purchase more than 1 table-or is that no longer the case-?

WB at night, VERY bad idea. I don't even buy much from WB either. I suggest you give everyone a warning at least one Convention in advance – the bad noise will convince you not to do this.

As an HMGS Volunteer, and WB staffer for Fall-In (which is usually a thankless job… why do I do this again?…) We are always looking for ways to better the show for ALL attending. I am always talking to members on things we can do as a group to improve the Con going experience. I wish we had a cookie-cutter answer to all concerns about the show, and could make everyone happy but so far we do not. Keep the communication open and going though. Keep the ideas coming, maybe we can find something that better suits people. I hear about a ton of problems and complaints through the grapevine, but very few approach the WB desk to let us know… i.e. credit card sales/ selling under table- we addressed these as soon as we heard and all the folks were very polite and nice about stopping (the Wally's sellers agreement is like buying a house, nobody reads the fine print.) Some may have slipped by as we were a lil under-staffed, but we do look for violations.

and….go!
D.Fischer II

Dan,
You make a lot of great points, well said.

I agree with you about Sunday; I could care less if you run a flea market all day long for free, Sunday is a getaway day, I did 148.00 in sales on Sunday.

Having a Friday night flea market instead of a day flea market and then having on only session on Saturday is a nice, fair compromise.

This eliminates a day session on Friday and a day session on Saturday and also allows dealers to get into the flea market Friday night and buy some stuff.

If money I spend on Friday night gets spent in the dealer hall on Saturday, then that's great. By having a night session and giving dealers a chance to get in there, sales might actually INCREASE for the flea market sellers.

I like your plan.

A LOT.

I just hope HMGS does as well.

Why is a nightime flea market session a bad idea?

Check that; a VERY bad idea.

If you float something like that out there, then back up your point with reasons why.

Dealers also need to figure in their cost, so, if a dealer gives a 10% discount, he needs to sell the beter part of $200 USD to make each table pay for itself -- and that is without making a dime of profit -- just replentishing stock and paying for his rental space. A flea market seller just need to sell $25 USD-$75 dollars worth of stuff to pay for their space. That does not even take into consideration the sales that a dealer must make in order to simply break even on gas, food and lodging. A lot of people don't understand that dealers need to sell A LOT of stuff just to break even.

As someone that sold at flea market session at this past fall-in, this funded my entire dealer hall shopping. Would not want to do flea market at night though. I just go for the day. Sometimes I will stay for a night game, but that is rare.

As a multiple-day attendee, I LOVE the idea of the dealer hall open in the day and the flea market at night. I think both would have more shoppers if they were not competing directly with each other, only with the games.

I question how many day-trippers make the trip solely or even principally for the flea market, and of those that do I imagine the greater number would stay the extra hours to shop. Also, it is better for the convention as a whole if more people stayed overnight than just day-tripped: the hotel and food costs help underwrite the willingness of the venues to have the convention, and these day-trippers might play more games or even GM games if they stayed at least one night.

The other factor to consider, which cuts multiple ways, is the fact that so many sellers in the flea market bring the same junk every year and buy tables for every session, with their goods sitting there unsold session after session. So much so that it makes me wonder whether you couldn't cut down on the number of flea market sessions and retain the value of the flea market overall.

Seriously, how many times must we all circle those same guys selling old S&T issues, overpriced FoW vehicles, and OOP and beat-up military history books? Twice would be enough.

Dan / Poniatowski

Comparing a single dealer table cost to the WB table cost is misleading. Most dealers do not get one table.

For the weekend, it costs me in excess of $2,500 USD to go to FI or CW. Double it for Historicon. And this does not including prep time the 3 weeks prior to the show.

Dealers have much more on the line than a WB seller.

As George said above, the giant sucking sound starts when WB opens up. Friday there was an initial crush of gamers until WB opened and then it didn't get busy until about 4:30. Saturday, you could time the sales rush with WB.

I like the ideas put forth but still think that the WB session should be at night and not compete with the dealer hall. Regarding Sunday, sales are poor on Sunday since everyone is leaving. If there is a session Sunday morning then you must allow dealers to start dismantling their booths when WB opens.

How about making a WB session on Friday morning when the dealers are in final setup. Close it before the dealer hall opens on Friday. This also takes care of the day trippers. Have the Saturday session at night.

Dealers already carry the risk due to weather and attendees not showing up. We do not get a refund when weather affects attendance. I am not sure why anyone thinks it is a good idea to have WB open at the same time.

If you really want to rid WB of any professional flea marketers, just switch to a bring and buy where the club earns a percentage of the sale but also has to accept what the gamer is selling. This would stop large quantities of new shrink wrapped items being sold. Policing the current system certainly isn't happening.

The debate of Flea market vs Dealers has been going on for years. It used to be that the flea market had very limited hours to be open as a compromise. I don't know if that is even an option anymore. Then there was the problem of flea market sellers being dealers in disguise. Whatever is worked out will always be a compromise that everyone hates.

I think there's a few fallacies in the arguments for both sides.

1. "Time on target" is not going to equal increased sales, anywhere. Because you go to the dealer hall longer does not mean you are going to spend more money. Nor, by the way does it do the same in the flea-market. People will come and browse in both but the other factor is….

2. "He's got a little list, he's got a little list…" people go to conventions generally looking for things. They cave certain collections and certain periods and certain things they want to buy to build an army or putty out the holes in one. By now almost everyone knows the dealers and what they sell and you know where to get your stuff and you make a beeline there to get it. if you want a one-eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater, you're going to go to the vender who sells it, be he in the dealer hall or the Flea-market--the guy whos got it will make the sale. To put it simply, I know what I got, I know what I want, and I know where to get it. Of course then there's…..

3. "Why did you go to Toys R Us to get a steak." I don't see a lot of overlap between the dealer area and the flea market. I don't see them selling a lot of the same stuff. Now and then--- yeah-- occasionally, but again, if you're looking for a rainbow colored Catoblepas, you look in one place, and if you're looking for Old Guard Grenadiers…
I scrounge the flea-market for old family and Milton Bradley games, old figures, and kookie stuff like oddball Christmas houses, and oh- any old piece of crap that piques my interest. Not the type of stuff I'm likely to find at a dealers area.

I really don't see a lot of cross over between the two. Just to wax anecdotal about this Cold Wars, I went to BOTH the Dealer Are and the Flea Market looking for the old plastic minitanks or 20mm WWI1 models, or the resin-cast tanks, WWII and almost nothing in either area. No dealers with it, no people in the flea-market selling it. So S.O.L on both cases. Cest la convention.

Does the Flea Market compete for Convention dollars with the dealer are? Of course it does, but you're only going to spend those dollars if the Flea market has something a specific gamer wants and so does the dealer. I didn't see a lot of that.

As those people in the HMGS who continually urged everyone to take it to the next level have had staggering success (they have succeeded in taking it to the next lower level), there is lavish space in the Dealer Are. Maybe the thing to do, now that there is plenty of room in the dealer hall, is to move the flea-market back into the dealer hall and equalize the table rates for rental. Am I being invidious? Of course. But I really see the two as two different activities.

It's the best way, the dealers get a break, the flea-marketeers have to face up if they are dealers in disguise, and the dealer hall is packed.

Sorry Double G, I already know you don't really care why – you just want things the way you want it – in this case not having to deal with competition from the WB guys.

And how do you know that?

If you bothered to read what I wrote above, I'm open to a night WB on Friday and a morning Saturday session, which still would "compete" with the dealer hall.

So you're wrong.

Part of my reason for a Friday night WB is it would allow me to shop as well.

I know, that's pretty selfish on my part.

Dynaman8789, what is wrong with that? You've read the analysis on the time, costs and risks… Why wouldn;t a dealer not want to compete with a flea market? As has been stated, the dealer has a LOT more at stake…

At the risk of sounding radical, why not run the WB sessions starting at 6pm throughout the night? or late into the night and again early in the morning? with possibly an 11am to 1pm lunchtime session?

Thanks Daniel – I am really glad someone else started this conversation- I almost mentioned it under the discussion of why more dealers are not returning to Fall In.

At Historicon on Saturday most of us dealers had all of about 20 customers in the entire dealer hall that morning when we opened. I talked with several of my fellow dealers and we all pretty much agreed something needs to change. Everyone was in line to get ready for the Flea Market to open. Its ridiculous that we had to open at 9am which means getting into the hall with enough time to uncover your booth and get the point of sale area up and running so that the Flea Market Guys could have the extra hour to sleep in, get their act together, pay very little compared to a vendor, and then have all of the customers. I could not believe I was at Historicon "The mother of all Historical Gaming Conventions" with virtually no customers Saturday morning. To be fair- Cold Wars was the same.

Now let me be clear- I am not anti- WB. I would also join in
checking everything out in evening sessions- there is a bunch of fun stuff in the WB area and you never know what you might find:) I think it is an important part of the shows.

To kind of make it worse for me I ride out with 2 guys that vend in the WB for virtually every show. I am happy for them that they combined sell almost as much as I do with no risk and very little expense- Good for them:) Seriously- they make me feel like a fool every show when I write a big check for my booth and work my butt off preping for the show and they pocket pretty much the same as I do with hardly any of the worries- ridiculous. They are fun to ride out with but they aren't that fun :(

It is currently a broken system/schedule and the dealers need to be helped out or protected better on this.

I stopped coming to Fall In when it moved to Halloween weekend and to be honest I have just not missed going back. I was considering it and the Battletech guys have been leaning on me But I actually decided at Historicon this year that 2 east shows opening with no customers Saturday morning was enough for one year and I would not come back in the Fall.

I realize nothing is ever perfect and this is not a knock on HMGS and all the work that people put into the shows- I know it takes a bunch of thankless hours and I cannot thank you enough. I love the East shows- HMGS please do something about this:)
It would make for a much happier dealer hall:)

Jim Fox
Iron Wind Metals

If I can offer some suggestions…

1) Have the dealer hall open 9:00am on Friday. Also, work with the tournament guys to start at 10am. Having it open at 12:00 seems to cut the day in half. It might also increase the Friday traffic.

2) Have WB open later – maybe 2pm to 9pm?

3) Make Sunday an optional day for dealers.

Any of those sound reasonable?

Jim, and others:

Thanks for your clarified responses! I would imagine that you (Jim) speak for a large chunk of dealers. I was a dealer once, and I remember traffic Saturday morning… a brief rush until about 930 am, and then almost nothing until 12. Like many, that's why I stopped being a dealer!

Whoever is in charge of HMGS decision making, you need to address this, and soon. I'm not saying my suggestion is the best one, but it seems to me that your dealers are your bread and butter… You should do everything in your power to make them happy. If it comes down to a choice of satisfying the needs of the day trippers or the dealers, I know exactly where I'd choose.

For the record, my favorite scenario would be this:

Dealers: 9-5 on FRI and SAT
Flea guys: 6 to 9 pm on FRI and SAT nite
Sunday: Free flea as usual, and dealers can stick around if they want to (but they do not have to…. (I HATED Sunday morning as a dealer!)

Day trippers: If you come at noon, and leave at 8, you can see both areas, and still have time for lunch and dinner, and maybe even a game or two.

Cap and Carp, I don;t think anyone wants to be responsible after 9 or 10 at night… Do you?

Peace,

Daniel

P.S. Jim. hope to see you back soon….

The issue seems to be about the people leaving the dealer hall, right? So why not move some/all of the FM to the dealer area since there is apparently space in there at both FI and Hcon? Otherwise this simply looks like an attempt by some dealers to kill the popular FM. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

It is broken and needs to be fixed.

There is no reason to 'kill' or eliminate the FM; it should not be open concurrently with the Dealer Hall.

Does anyone think there could be a con (of this size/space required) if there wasn't a Dealer Hall-?

Again, why should they have to compete with the FM-?

The dealer hall has gone down in quality consistently over the last several years. One by one many manufacturers or importers have dropped out to be replaced by retailers. That is fine in one respect, but it is not worth driving to the Con just to shop with mail order retailers. As an attendee, I agree that some new ideas should be tried to invigorate the dealer hall.

Maybe HMGS could try and milk the dealers a little less and encourage more of them to come. It is supposed to be an "educational non-profit organization," after all. I would prefer more dealers than using the extra money raised for pet projects.

Here's another idea:

* Fri Dealer Hall open from 1200-1600
* Fri WB session from 1700-2000
* Sat Dealer Open from 0900-1600
* Sat WB session from 1700-2000
* Sun Dealers open until 1200
* Free WB on Sunday

Everyone gives a bit and gives a bit.

I do sell at WB, usually on Sunday. And generally give most back to the dealers on Sunday before I leave.

Mike

Hey!!!

Don't go talking about the size of some guy's list!

Some lists are bigger than others and some are shorter. Some lists are even thinker than others.

We all shop with the lists we have in hand.

I know this is a very sensitive subject. We just don't want guys being rubbed the wrong way.

I like the idea of the dealer hall being open 9-5 Friday and 9-5 Saturday and the flea market open from 6-9 Friday and 6-9 Saturday night.

I also like the idea of the dealer hall running from 9-5 Friday and Saturday, flea market 6-9 Friday and 10-1 on Saturday.

That would be my first choice actually.

In either scenario, have the flea market all you want on Sunday. 9-12 for the dealers is fine by me, you don't want half the room packing and leaving while the other half is trying to conduct business, 9-12 is certainly doable.

If you keep running the flea market 12 of the 18 hours the dealer hall is open, you're going to keep losing dealers.

If you don't want to make changes, then be ready for the consequences.

historygamer-

No one is trying to kill the popular FM. Actually everyone I think is in agreement – it is an important part of the shows.

It's not really a problem of location…I think it is a timing issue and simple ecomomics 101-supply and demand…….People realize there is no back up inventory in the Flea Market and if you don't get it the first time well that's pretty much it. If you put them in the same room us dealers then you would just see everyone racing from WB table to WB table when it all opened- I don't know if one room would help fix the problem or not but I would bet not?

I also don't think making the dealer hall optional on Sunday works very well logistically. You don't want some dealers leaving while others are not. It takes hours for some of us to pack it all up. When we transition in and out it is kind of a mess. You would need the big garage doors open for half the night. Plus they would have to secure and staff it. We really caught flak at Cincycon from attendees when we did not hold the vendors until 1:00 pm Sunday. A bunch of flak:( It just adds confusion and aggravation to the attendees. Now if you wanted to say Saturday was it for all the vendors that might help some dealers out. Many of us travel from very far away- Me I drive 9 hours so I need Sunday either way just to load and get home. Even as it is I get home at 1-2am Monday morning.

Daniel- thanks…I would love to be back next year- it is just a ton of work and risk:) I will do what I can, when I can, to support HMGS and no matter what the 3 shows are a really good time:)

I like things just the way they are. No right or wrong, good or bad-- I just do. 8)=

I also like things the way they are. Having the FM at night is not fair to the people in the FM.Anyone think of that? Anyone think of how it might effect night game attendance? Over the years there have been many concessions made to the dealers but since the FM"s are not an organized group have no voice.
The dealers can squauk but many of them have been coming for alot of years so apparently they are making money. These cons are not only for them but for the membership. Everything I buy at a con from a dealer I can get over the internet. Thats not the case in the flea market…

RE: Anyone think of how it might effect night game attendance?

Wow… I hadn't thought of that. Apparently, neither do the day trippers…. or those zillions who go out to dinner. . . or those too tired to game at night.

I am truly stunned, LVG, that you have so little empathy for the dealers, who are, IMHO, the backbone of this hobby. Did you read any of their comments?

And like the duck says in my favorite movie: The way things are stinks!

Daniel