"British Fusilier Centre Company Plume / Hackle Colour" Topic

Hi guys,

OK, can we please try and clear this one up once and for all, largely because I want these same units, the 7th Royal Fusiliers and 23rd Royal Welch Fusiliers painted up in the near future.

Yes, both regiments all had the flank company style wings for all the companies including centre and all wore the shako while on campaign in the Peninsular rather than the bearskins (generally reserved for parade back home).

However, my main query that still seems to produce some division amongst our vast group of knowledgeable boffins is with regard to the plume / hackle colours of each company.

Following research on TMP I can see various threads over the years:

June 2012
TMP link
July 2013
TMP link
Dec 2013
TMP link
Feb 2014
TMP link

……… and the general opinion seems to be that the Light companies of both the 7th and 23rd had the usual Green and the Grenadiers had the usual White. The real difference of opinion is with regard to the Centre companies of each.

Most people tend to agree that the 7th Royal Fusiliers Centre companies all had White plumes / hackles the same as the Grenadier companies. Others seem to think that this same setup was apparent for the 23rd Royal Welch Fusiliers, although it has also been suggested in the above threads that the 23rd were different in that there Centre companies plume / hackle distinctions were the same as the regular line regiments with white over red.

Does anybody know for sure and indeed have any evidence to back this up?

I'd love to get this one cleared up once and for all. Over to you guys!

Kind Regards

Mike

I don't think fusileer regiments had grenadier or light companies. I think the battalions were composed of ten companies of fusileers all of whom wore white hackles.

But I could be wrong . . .

The 7th Fusiliers all wore wings and had white plumes.
Ref: Military Dress of the Peninsular War 1808-1814, Windrow and Embleton, pg 135 and plate 64. Also a Scarlet Coat by Chartrand p 65.

23rd Fusiliers, all wore wings and white plumes; ref Wellington's Army: The Uniforms of the British Soldier 1812-15. plate 29 Text By Haythornthwaite and plates by Hamilton Smith.

21st Royal North British (sometimes referred to Scots Fusiliers)can't find definitive information on this regiment but I expect that it would be the same as the other two fusilier regiments.

A good question. I must do some further research.

I suggest re-checking those references. The Windrow and Embleton uniform is labeled as a center company figure, and the Hamilton Smith print as "batallion" infantry. I infer the latter is another reference to the center companies, not a flank company. Chartrand's illustration actually depicts a light infantry company sergeant in a non-white plume. The illustration is reproduced in black and white, but clearly it has to be green.

The existence of the fusilier light companies can be confirmed by consulting the order of battle for New Orleans. The light company of the 7th fusiliers was detached from its parent batallion in Lambert's brigade and included in a converged light batallion in Keane's brigade. The light company of the 21st fusiliers was similarly detached to a converged light batallion within Gibbs' brigade. I often consult the orders of battle here

link

because of their level of detail. Scroll down the page; the orders of battle are in chronological order.

Rick

Well, it appears I got it completely wrong (no change there then). As Florida Tory has shown, the fusiliers did have a light company and from this previous discussion TMP link Supercilius Maximus's and Major Snort's contributions shows that the 23rd at least also had a grenadier company.

I'm not sure this means regarding the colour of the hackles they wore. My guess is that in full dress, when wearing their bearskin caps, all companies would have white hackles but when wearing shakoes they would have worn the same company distinctions as other line units.

I do not believe fusileers had a grenadier company as the fusileer distinction is an elite status of its own.

Light company and the rest with white plumes, all with the elite company shoulder distinctive.

Now if only Alan Perry would make a command pack to accompany them….

Rick; re-checked and correct as stated. However, a further explanation is required. Note that Franklin refers to the 7th Fusiliers organization as fusilier companies (battalion companies), a right flank company and a left flank company instead of light and grenadier companies. plate p 161. But to confuse the issue, in the plate notes he mentions drawings of drummers circa 1793 in the Museum of the Royal Fusiliers; "but the drummer of the light company wore a scarlet waistcoat." So, in 1793 there may have been a light company. However, I am not sure if this was a mistake as in the plate there are two depictions of an officer's coat of the "Right Flank Company 1796-1797" and one of "Left Flank Company 1793-1796". However no depiction of light and grenadier companies with their associated white and green plumes.

Interestingly, for the 23rd fusiliers Franklin states "In common with other fusilier regiments all personnel wore wings but the regiment had both light and grenadier companies." p 181. Changing again for the 21st it is "Left Flank Company" and "Right Flank Company" similar to the 7th (p 180).

So far I can't find any info re the plumes/hackles in Franklin's work but I will keep looking.

Re Chartrand's illustration; I believe you may be referring to a black and white version of R.J. Marion's painting of of the 21st Fusiliers and senior British officers inside the White House, which is contained on p66 of Chartrand's A Scarlet Coat. If I am correct in my assumption, the sergeant in question could easily be of the center, right flank company or Left flank company, as fusiliers wore chevrons on both arms as in all fusilier companies. (Ref Osprey MAA 119 Chart p36.) Again, if it is the same depiction that you refer to, the sergeant is sporting a white plume (no colour = white as compared to the general officer's plume white over the shaded red…if it was green it would be shaded).

Re orders of battle and a reference to a light company of the 21st being part of a combined battalion of the light companies of Gibbs Brigade of 4th, 44th, 93rd , 21st and 1st WI. (confirmed in Reilly & Quimby) is certainly persuasive but not definitive. For example at Bladensburg Colonel Thornton's light brigade of combined light companies included a company of Royal Marines, which has frequently been referred to as the R.M. Light Company. However, the Royal Marine Battalion at Bladensburg did not have a light company or a grenadier company. My point is that if a company from a parent unit is employed in light company duties it is not always a light company by structure.

So, more research is needed before an absolute determination can be made as to whether or not fusilier battalions had light and grenadier companies and further, how were they differentiated, particularly if most sources indicate that they all wore wings and white plumes. This is a very good question and a most interesting discussion.

P.S. Rick thanks for that most useful link.

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all the contributions so far, although I sense their is more to come, with further evidence still to be unearthed / highlighted.

So, am I right in thinking then, to date, the general consensus would be that:

a) assuming each Fusilier regiment followed the standard 10 company practice per battalion, the Grenadier / Right Flank Company would have white plumes / hackles? (I think this one is almost beyond doubt to be fair).

b) it would appear that the centre companies of all these regiments (7th, 21st and 23rd) all had white plumes / hackles (usually reserved just for the Grenadiers in a standard regiment)?

c) also that again assuming the above usual company structure, the Light / Left Flank Company also had white plumes / hackles? Although this particular company (Light) may well have still adopted the usual Green plumes / hackles suggested by some?

With regard to the Fusilier regiments in general, I'm referring to them while they were on campaign in the Peninsular and I dare say also in America (War Of 1812).

Kind Regards

Mike

For the 7th and 23rd

All ranks were Fusiliers, whether they were in the 'Grenadier, 'light' or Battalion company. There were no 'Privates'. The distiction was all white Plume/hackle, flanker style epaulets for all ranks and a black 5 strand ribbon sewn directly below the collar at the rear of the officers tunic for the 23rd.

In 'THAT ASTONISHING INFANTRY. Royal Welch Fusiliers 1689-2006' by Glover and Reily.

"In 1709 Officers began to adopt the wearing of feathers in their hats, and this was officially sanctioned in 1789 when the colour of the feather plume, or hackle, was laid down for grenadiers and fusiliers as white. For line battalion companies as half red, half white, and for Light companies of battalions as green."

Seeing as all ranks of all companies of a fusilier regiment are fusiliers and not privates, they all wore white hackles and other elite distinctions.

The 7th Royal Fusiliers Colonel between 1789 and 1801, was the Duke of Kent (future father of Queen Victoria). He laid down standing orders which recorded, inter alia: "All Officers are to understand that the terms "Right and Left Flank Companies" are fixed upon the application of what in other regiments are styled Grenadier and Light Infantry Companies, it being the Colonels pleasure that, in the Royal Fusiliers, the term "Grenadier" and "Light Infantry" should never be used…."

Here's another little known fact.

The 5th Northumberland Regiment of foot also had white plumes throughout the regiment (though the centre coys kept the normal shoulder strap and tuft) This was a distinction gained from an action at St. Lucia 1778, where the men took the white plumes from the defeated French troops which was enough for the whole regiment to be so equipped and they kept the distinction until they received official approval in 1826.

7th, 21st, 23rd, All ranks had white hackles/plumes and flank company style shoulder wings.

Paul :)

Re: 23rd

read through this page.

link

Paul :)

Excellent stuff dibble. I think that has settled it. White plumes for everyone.

Top stuff dibble and indeed everyone who's chipped in, it is much appreciated!

So I'll be going for the white plumes / hackles throughout each of the battalions, all companies, whatever the regiment and with a fairly large degree of confidence that it is as historically correct as can be – result!

Cheers & Kind Regards

Mike

Thanks all!

That Cent.Jours site, though very handy as a whole, has a lot to answer for when it comes to specifically the British uniforms, both foot and Cavalry. And as for the colours (flags), they are not much use either.

Paul :)

And another thing! My ancestor Drummer Richard Bentick (Bentinck) Number 26 on the Waterloo roll list for the 23rd, is listed under Captain Joseph Hawtyn's,(Major) Grenadier Company 23rd Foot. The light company is also listed though the word 'light' is in brackets. all the other companies are listed by numbers 1 to 8.

Here is a little interesting add-item for you to peruse

PDF link

Sorry if my posts are a bit random but I have just moved to another abode and am trying to sort that as well as these posting out as and when I can.

Paul :)