"mail under the bard" Topic

Reading J.F Verbruggen and it says bearded horses had mail, so basically the colorfully tapestry was just to hide unseemly mail? I always thought they were s fasion thing with no real effect?

Curious. I'm not familiar with Verbruggen, what's the title of the book?

The art of warfare in western Europe during the middle ages

Hmm … originally published in Dutch in 1954. By all accounts pricey and hard to get hold of – you, sir, are fortunate to have access to a copy!

Of course the question that must be asked is on what does Verbruggen base his assertion that barding covered mail? Does the passage refer to any primary texts? If so, what are they?

It's a 2nd edition from 97 expanded and translated, it's on amazon for like 30 bucks

He says barded horses arose in the middle of 12th century. And refers to them as armored with "chainmail" he cites Gilbert of mons

Are you referring to the statement on p25 "Horses were also armoured with chain mail after the middle of this century" [this century being the 12th century]?
link

If so, there is no direct citation of Gilbert of Mons or anyone else to support the assertion?

There is another bit on the same page:
"In 1187 the count of Hainault aided King Philip Augustus with a unit of 190 horsemen of whom more than 109 had barded or armoured horses."
This passage does have a citation to Gilbert of Mons, however it seems to suggest barding OR armour, not both.

I don't read it that way, "or" means "in other words" to my understanding….

The original source can also be read as, '110 chosen knights and eighty mounted serjeants with mail.' However, the same passage goes on to describe that they all had horses equipped with iron armour and 'covered in iron'. So it's pretty clear that the horses were armoured. Then, of course, there's the passage in William Marshall's biography dated to the early thirteenth century that describes horse armour in some detail.

We seem to have two threads on this now, but I'll repeat my post from the Bosworth thread for convenience,

We also have a number of letters patent from King John, for example,
'The Sheriff of Hereford is ordered to surrender to the King two pair of iron caparisons, the two coats of mail, and one hauberk, as Peter le Burgess deliver them to him, so that the King have them at Nottingham on the Sunday next after the feast of Saint Laurence. Teste 5th August at Woodstock'.

In my opinion, it is likley that caparison was used to mean any horse covering, ie barding, which might or might not include metal protection.

The question I keep coming back to though is why are there no examples of horse armour that predate 1480?

That would be an indicator of how uncommon metal horse bards were. Mail for the human body, not so rare. We do have a very few surviving examples of mail armor for the man. If, out all those countless thousands of mail byrnies, hauberks and shirts, we only have a handful of surviving examples, why would we have even one mail horse bard?…

Here's another theory to explain the non existent examples of horse armor: those big mail sections could quickly be refashioned into several mail shirts for warriors. If the horse armor wasn't going to be used as such, a rapid economy would be to have smiths rework the mail into armored shirts for a few troops….

Couldn't also human and horse mail be exchanged? A big piece of square mail could be part of horse armor or the chest or back part of human armor?

I understand that better quality mail was tailored in a similar manner to garments with darts etc. So it would be reasonable to expect the somewhat rarer horse mail to be fitted to the mount. Of course, pieces could still have been reused, but mail seems to have had a limited lifespan.

The question I keep coming back to though is why are there no examples of horse armour that predate 1480?

To my knowledge, the oldest surviving complete plate horse barding dates back to around 1450, and is attributed to Pier Innocenzo da Faerno of Milan.

On the other hand, it is worth keeping in mind that there are very few surviving intact suits of human armour that date from years prior to late 15th century.

Gerry Embleton wrote a short essay in one of his books about what he thinks happened to all of that armour that was manufactured in the middle ages.

To my knowledge, the oldest surviving complete plate horse barding dates back to around 1450, and is attributed to Pier Innocenzo da Faerno of Milan.

Anyone know where that particular set is? Which museum?

I always thought they were s fasion thing with no real effect?

Even if entirely textile, they might have significant protective effect if thick and sturdy enough.

Anyone know where that particular set is? Which museum?

Historisches Museum der Stadt in Vienna, I believe.

The source I had at hand mentioned some museum in Vienna, though I cannot recall the name at the moment. I will need to check the details later.

I once visited a museum in Vienna that had an impressive collection of 16th and late 15th century armour, though I cannot recall whether they had any horse bardings on display.

GWA his the nail on the head, though I expect there were very few complete mail coverings, rather that there might be areas of the barding reinforced with mail or leather or perhaps horn.
Medieval observers certainly saw a value in barded (or barbed) mounts or they would n't mention them, such as Edward I's spy informing him that a body of Scots was operating in Ettrick Forest with over 1000 infantry and 150 'covered' horses.

GWA his the nail on the head, though I expect there were very few complete mail coverings,

I'm not so sure. GWA suggests that mail originally intended for horses was resorked into mail shirts for men. But of course, the opposite is equally possible so as an argument explaining the lack of mail horse armour it doesn't hold up.

150 'covered' horses.

Ah, but the question is, covered with what? Textile, mail, full plate … ???

As an argument for the lack of mail horse armour it doesn't hold up.

Unless you are arguing for hypothetical parity in the numbers of mail shirts and mail bards, I think that my argument works to explain why we don't have any surviving examples of mail bards. Mail shirts throughout the middle ages had to outnumber mail bards on the order of at least twenty to one, and probably a lot more than that. Just taking cavalry alone: I am proposing that unarmored horses outnumbered armored horses c. ten to one. Then we have infantry greatly outnumbering cavalry in most armies, and many if not most infantry possessing mail armor as well….

Ah, but the question is, covered with what? Textile, mail, full plate … ???

You don't seriously suggest the last one, since these are late 13th, early 14th century "covered" horses. The most "plate" one would see is a chanfron (chamfron) and maybe a peytral. But I would expect most examples of these to be made of cuir bouilli….

Unless you are arguing for hypothetical parity in the numbers of mail shirts and mail bards, I think that my argument works to explain why we don't have any surviving examples of mail bards. Mail shirts throughout the middle ages had to outnumber mail bards on the order of at least twenty to one, and probably a lot more than that. Just taking cavalry alone: I am proposing that unarmored horses outnumbered armored horses c. ten to one. Then we have infantry greatly outnumbering cavalry in most armies, and many if not most infantry possessing mail armor as well….

You make a convincing case for there being few mail bards to start with. In which case why argue that what there was was converted for human use?

You don't seriously suggest the last one, since these are late 13th, early 14th century "covered" horses.

No, no, of course not. I was just making the point that the word "covered" does not carry any implication of "with what".

…why argue that what there was was converted for human use?

You seemed in need of the evidence of surviving examples in order to start believing that armor for horses was in use. I was offering a hypothesis for one reason why no examples of earlier or other horse armors exist….

Indeed, I think there's a risk of going too far into that particular rabbit hole. Similarly, we have finds of mail fragments and rusted lumps of mail, which frankly could have been part of virtually any garment.

As an aside, Leeds have two sets of mail underwear in their vaults :-)

Mail underwear?

(I could have used any number of so inappropriate images, you don't have to thank me….)
>:D

I guess we must be grateful for small mercies ;-)