"Top 15 ACW battles and Top 30 European battles from late C19" Topic
15 Posts
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ChrisBBB | 31 Oct 2014 5:27 a.m. PST |
A few years ago I compiled a table of late nineteenth century European battles with numbers of troops involved on each side, and numbers and % of casualties. I did a similar exercise for the ACW. I found some of the results surprising, and interesting enough to share on TMP. First is a list of the 30 biggest European battles of 1853-1897. The numbers are for the combined forces engaged*. Koeniggraetz 1866 (APW) 490,000 Sedan 1870 (FPW) 320,000 Gravelotte 1870 (FPW) 301,000 Solferino 1859 (Risorgimento) 267,000 Beaumont 1870 (FPW) 210,000 Mars-la-Tour 1870 (FPW) 207,000 Custozza 1866 (APW) 195,000 Noisseville 1870 (FPW) 160,000 Borny / Colombey 1870 (FPW) 152,000 Aleksinatz 1876 (Serbo-Turkish) 151,000 Villiers / Champigny 1870 (FPW) 150,000 The Lisaine 1871 (FPW) 150,000 Le Mans 1871 (FPW) 140,000 Beaugency 1870 (FPW) 132,000 Loigny / Poupry 1870 (FPW) 125,000 Froeschwiller / Woerth 1870 (FPW) 118,000 Magenta 1859 (Risorgimento) 117,000 Kizil-Tepe 1877 (RTW) 115,000 Third Plevna 1877 (RTW) 110,000 Pirot 1885 (Serbo-Bulgarian) 107,000 Shipka Pass 1877-78 (RTW) 106,000 The Alma 1854 (Crimea) 99,000 Aladja Dagh 1877 (RTW) 95,000 The Chernaya 1855 (Crimea) 95,000 Coulmiers 1870 (FPW) 90,000 Domokos 1897 (Greco-Turkish) 90,000 St Quentin 1871 (FPW) 73,000 Beaune-la-Rolande 1870 (FPW) 72,000 Slivnitsa 1885 (Serbo-Bulgarian) 72,000 Metchka / Tristenik 1877 (RTW) 70,000 It's a real mix of the famous and the obscure. And for the American Civil War: Seven Days (1862) 196,000 Chancellorsville (1863) 195,000 Fredericksburg (1862) 187,000 Cold Harbor (1864) 167,000 Gettysburg (1863) 166,000 Spotsylvania (1864) 152,000 Chickamauga (1863) 125,000 Antietam (1862) 114,000 2nd Bull Run (1862) 112,000 Shiloh (1862) 112,000 Vicksburg (1863) 110,000 Missionary Ridge (1863) 100,000 Nashville (1864) 80,000 Stones River (1862) 76,000 Atlanta (1864) 75,000 Anyway, I hope you like the lists. It's particularly interesting to compare the FPW with the ACW. Although the ACW was a much longer conflict with larger forces, the FPW generated virtually the same number of large (75,000+ men) battles. I'd welcome people's comments – especially if you spot any significant omissions from either list! Chris * You could argue about some of the numbers – what counts as 'engaged'? Nummbers of casualties is an alternative way of assessing the size of a battle, and the lists look a bit different by that criterion. But those numbers are also debatable and can include large numbers of POWs, which may or may not indicate a serious fight. |
Pictors Studio | 31 Oct 2014 5:46 a.m. PST |
That is a neat list. I had no idea that Koeniggraetz was so big. |
ChrisBBB | 31 Oct 2014 6:10 a.m. PST |
Yep, Koeniggraetz was a biggie. This is everyone's chance to brag about how they fought it in under an hour on a teatray and got an accurate historical result. Or at the other extreme, how they and 17 buddies spent a week in a barn fighting it on a dozen 12' tables with 54mm figures. And I look forward to hearing which serious grognard can claim to have fought the most battles from either list. I'd be surprised if there isn't some hardcore Reb/Yankee who's done all 15 ACW battles. I'd be equally surprised if there's anyone who's fought all 30 from the European list (my score is 24). Chris |
vtsaogames | 31 Oct 2014 6:46 a.m. PST |
Only Shiloh and Stone's River, plus parts of Gettysburg. I have an idea for trying Shiloh again but await the publication of your BBB rules. |
KimRYoung | 31 Oct 2014 8:43 a.m. PST |
Add: The Wilderness (1864) 163,000 North Anna (1864) 121,000 (not many units engaged, but always a fun what if they did) Seven Pines (1862) 73,000 I have fought all ACW on your list except Fredericksburg (somehow missed doing that!) and also the ones I added.
Have a friend that has done most of the FPW ones too, which I played in a few. |
ChrisBBB | 31 Oct 2014 9:23 a.m. PST |
Kim, Some good additions to my spreadsheet, thank you. I think the Wilderness had got conflated with Spotsylvania Courthouse, so thanks for straightening that out. Well done on your 14 out of 15 from my ACW list. Good luck on completing the set some time! Chris |
PapaSync | 31 Oct 2014 12:02 p.m. PST |
Wow with that many soldiers involved it a wonder that there as anyone left to fight the next battle. 8) |
John the Greater | 31 Oct 2014 1:42 p.m. PST |
I have gamed most of the ACW battles. The Seven Days as separate games, but not Malvern Hill (that would be fun for the Union, I guess). We have never done Cold Harbor (again, fun for the boys in butternut). Nor have we done Nashville as the weather is the only reason it wasn't worse for Hood. I have seen Solferino at and HMGS convention and it is spectacular. |
Blutarski | 31 Oct 2014 6:09 p.m. PST |
"I have seen Solferino at and HMGS convention and it is spectacular." ….. Was that perhaps one of Bruce Weigle's 6mm extravaganzas on his beautifully sculpted historically correct topographical terrain boards?
B |
Perris0707 | 31 Oct 2014 6:57 p.m. PST |
I have Froeschwiller-Woerth set up on my table right now. It's always a lot of fun to see if the French can hold off the Prussian hordes! |
John the Greater | 01 Nov 2014 12:17 p.m. PST |
Yes, Blutarski. It was the Master Weigle himself. A thing of beauty and a joy to behold. |
ChrisBBB | 02 Nov 2014 4:25 a.m. PST |
Yes, Froeschwiller is fun. Ultimately, though, it's a fairly straightforward frontal assault. I think battles where both sides have to manoeuvre a lot are more interesting. Franco-Prussian ones I really like are Beaumont, Mars-la-Tour, Borny, Loigny, and my favourite, St Quentin (the wagon trains). A good candidate for 'best of the rest' would be Metchka, from the Russo-Turkish War. I haven't done so much ACW. Shiloh is a bit of a slugfest. But Gettysburg is great, of course. And The Seven Days with a special Magruder rule was pretty good too. Chris |
ddon1234 | 02 Nov 2014 3:08 p.m. PST |
I'd be interested in the list if it had the % of casualties to compare the two. Also with the same for earlier battles using smoothbore muskets to compare the casualties. |
KTravlos | 03 Nov 2014 12:37 a.m. PST |
I actually would also be interested in a list of division or division equivalent sized battles to divert myself as I am building up my armies from brigade to division to corps level, to army level. |
ChrisBBB | 03 Nov 2014 9:10 p.m. PST |
Specially for ddon1234: Bloodiest 30 European battles by total casualties*, with % of forces engaged: Solferino 40,000 (15%) Koeniggraetz 40,000 (8%) Le Mans 35,000 (25%) Gravelotte 32,000 (11%) Froeschwiller 30,000 (25%) Mars-la-Tour 30,000 (14%) Sedan 26,000 (8%) Third Plevna 25,000 (23%) Champigny / Villiers 18,000 (12%) Inkerman 15,000 (26%) Magenta 15,000 (13%) Loigny / Poupry 15,000 (12%) Aladja Dagh 15,000 (16%) Custozza 14,000 (7%) [Shipka Pass?] Beaugency 13,000 (10%) Chernaya 10,000 (11%) Borny / Colombey 10,000 (7%) Kurudere 9,000 (13%) Alma 9,000 (9%) Spicheren 9,000 (14%) Beaune-la-Rolande 9,000 (13%) Lisaine 9,000 (6%) Second Plevna 9,000 (18%) Gitschin 8,000 (12%) Beaumont 8,000 (4%) Pirot 8,000 (7%) Nachod 7,000 (13%) Dueppel 6,000 (13%) Trautenau 6,000 (12%) ACW bloodiest 15: Gettysburg 46,000 (28%) Seven Days 36,000 (18%) Chickamauga 35,000 (28%) Spotsylvania 31,000 (20%) Chancellorsville 31,000 (16%) Wilderness 28,000 (17%) Stones River 25,000 (32%) Shiloh 24,000 (21%) Antietam 23,000 (20%) Seven Pines 22,000 (30%) 2nd Bull Run 18,000 (16%) Fredericksburg 18,000 (10%) Cold Harbor 18,000 (11%) Missionary Ridge 12,000 (12%) Atlanta 9,000 (12%) Chris * may include a lot of POW in some cases |
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