Rod MacArthur | 30 Oct 2014 10:18 a.m. PST |
During the struggle for Hougoumont at the Battle of Waterloo the defenders were running short of ammunition. One of the famous stories of this conflict was the driving of an ammunition cart into the chateau by Private Brewster of the Royal Waggon Train. I am sure I have seen a print of this somewhere, but despite searching my many books on Waterloo cannot find it. Can anyone point me to a print in any book showing this incident. Rod |
Artilleryman | 30 Oct 2014 11:41 a.m. PST |
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deadhead | 30 Oct 2014 1:42 p.m. PST |
Great pictures. I had never seen the image with four horses (a challenge for poor old "Brewster" or whatever we agree his name was). I think the second is more (familiar and) likely, but we need Summerfield here. If he does not know then forget it………… |
Artilleryman | 30 Oct 2014 4:16 p.m. PST |
The pictures are interesting and the 'two-horse' one is probably more realistic, but neither seems to have a realistic representation of an ammunition wagon or limber. |
Rod MacArthur | 31 Oct 2014 1:56 a.m. PST |
Many thanks. The print I recall was a much older one, possibly black and white, but these are good. Rod |
John Franklin | 31 Oct 2014 5:11 a.m. PST |
@Rod MacArthur, In 2004 Capt. David Horn (former curator of the Guards Museum in London) and I investigated the identity of the person responsible for the re-supply of ammunition, in an attempt to separate the facts from the various myths which surrounded this event. It is clear from several important accounts written by defenders of Hougoumont (which I own and have yet to publish) that they were running short of ammunition from 1 p.m. and that several attempts were made to secure further supplies. However, it wasn't until a little after 6 p.m. that they were replenished. Having examined the records at the National Archives in Kew, WO100/14 and WO25/2484, we confirmed that Private Joseph Brewer was present with the Royal Waggon Train at Waterloo. He is a credible candidate, because as several contemporary 'rumours' suggest, he transferred to the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards after the Waterloo campaign. But his service record is missing, and there was no distinction placed on his regimental records held by RHQ Scots Guards. Indeed, he was one of several men who transferred to the regiment from the Royal Waggon Train after Waterloo. In short, unless there is new evidence which can positively link Brewer to the event, we concluded that it could have been one of sixteen men who delivered the tumbrel of ammunition to Hougoumont. John |
Lord Hill | 31 Oct 2014 7:11 a.m. PST |
According to my database of all British Waterloo combatants, Private Josephe Brewer was one of 108 other ranks in Number 1 troop Royal Waggon Train. Like others above, I can't recall ever seeing the original source which names this man as the driver. |
deadhead | 31 Oct 2014 1:17 p.m. PST |
Now the real experts are getting involved. Call me sad, but I think that is what is so great about this forum. The two pics shown suggest something with a "pitched roof", a two wheeled cart (a tumbrel?) for infantry ammo. I cannot imagine that what Baring was begging for at LHS, or saved the day at Hougoumont, was the same as what we see used for artillery ammo. I therefore do not mean the thing that I have now ordered from Westfalia, the double box behind the the single box, behind six horses (sorry, but you all know what I mean) with RHA drivers sitting everywhere. Surely infantry ammo came in something far simpler. I imagine a cart with a canvas cover from Brussels to, let's say, Mt St Jean. But (and this is so fundamental) how did they get the ammo to the front line? I have read the tales of a shako full of cartridges etc,in an emergency, but, when all is going well, according to plan, how was it done? more importantly, in what was it done? |
John Franklin | 31 Oct 2014 2:49 p.m. PST |
@Lord Hill Are you saying that you actually agree with me? John |
deadhead | 31 Oct 2014 4:07 p.m. PST |
He was heading towards this farm just below the crossroads, when this Yorkshire (well, Sheffield actually) occifer aimed at the Prince of Orange, missed, hit Private Brewereseter in the right shoulder and caused his cart to veer to the right instead, well to the West. His cart ended up in the wrong building, whilst filled with rifle ammo. Fortunately, as we now know, the garrison was largely Nassau, Hanoverian, Brunswick Jaeger and not Guards, so it all worked out in the end. It is nearly 200 years. There are more daft ideas in print this year (next year will be worse). I feel a book coming on…….."The Secret of Hougoumont; the grassy knoll revisited" |
Rod MacArthur | 01 Nov 2014 5:10 a.m. PST |
I cannot say what sort of vehicle infantry ammunition was carried in, but something like the carts portrayed probably makes sense, a bit like a short French caisson. By 1815 artillery ammunition was carried on modified desaguliers limbers, with double the number of ammunition boxes carried on a normal limber, but this would have been an expensive vehicle for infantry ammunition. There is a print of the Siege of Badajoz with an ammunition vehicle of this caisson type, so perhaps old artillery caissons were used for infantry ammunition, an economical solution. The British ammunition resupply system was controlled by the Field Train, which was a civilian department of the Board of Ordnance, but they wore uniforms virtually identical to the Royal Artillery. Their commander for most of the Peninsula War and at Waterloo was Sir Richard Henegan, who wrote his two volume memoirs "Seven Years Campaigning in the Peninsula and the Netherlands", available as a free download online. He explains the role of the Field Train on pages 8-10 of Volume 1. Henegan writes about the ammunition resupply problem at La Haye Sainte on pages 321 and 322 of Volume 2 of his memoirs. He says the problem was that the rate of use of rifle ammunition by the three battalions of 95th and two KGL light battalions was so high that there was no more rifle ammunition left by the time that Baring was asking for more. Henegan does not mention ammunition resupply to Hougoumont. It is a slight mystery why a Royal Waggon Train driver would be driving an ammunition cart, since it is my understanding that their sprung wagons were all used as ambulances. I suppose it is possible that there were not enough Royal Artillery Drivers to man the Field Train vehicles, so some were borrowed from the Royal Waggon Train (typical British pragmatic solution). Rod |
Lord Hill | 01 Nov 2014 2:46 p.m. PST |
Rod, I've always found the Royal Waggon Train confusing – there seems to be so little written by or about them (and yet there are 275 men on the Medal Roll, a sizeable unit. If you're saying they weren't involved in ammunition supply, what do you think their role was? I'm also puzzled by the uniform – the "square" of buttons on a red tunic seems consistant but the headgear varies from source to source. I've seen a typical light infantry style shako in various books, Mont St Jean reckons it was a bell shako link and Front Rank produce yet a third option, a kind of peaked leather cap link |
summerfield | 02 Nov 2014 2:32 a.m. PST |
Dear Rod The inspection returns (5 May 1815) for 1st Light Bn KGL 392 Rifles and Swords, 253 Muskets and bayonettes. 2nd Light Bn KGL 392 Rifles and Swords, 253 Muskets and bayonettes. Verner (1919) Volume II, p10 It should be noted that the Eight KGL Line had 1064 Rifles issued to their light companies from 1804-1814. The Baker Rifle used the same ammunition as the British Carbine. At the ranges that they were fighting there was no requirement for the patch. It is interesting that an up patched ball would drop down the baker rifle without the need for ramming or much ramming. A rate of fire of about three rounds per minute would be possible. The rifling would have been caked with gunpowder residue by this stage. The range and accuracy of the Baker would be not much better than a carbine. This came out of the research for the book on the "Coote Manningham Shorncliffe Lectures and the Origins of the 95th Rifles" that has now been published. The SHORNCLIFFE TRUST is starting up the lectures again on 15 November 2014 at Shorncliffe, near Folkestone. They are being held in the centre of Shorncliffe Garrison close to where they began, Professor Charles Esdaile, General Sir Nick Parker, Chris Shaw and Andrew Morgan will continue the theme of the originals over 200 years ago, echoing the inventiveness and forward thinking of the period. link Stephen |
Rod MacArthur | 02 Nov 2014 4:24 a.m. PST |
Stephen, Yes, I was aware of the inspection report giving the proportions of rifles to muskets in the KGL Light Batallions. Henegan's explanation may only account for part of the problem. Rod |
von Winterfeldt | 02 Nov 2014 4:34 a.m. PST |
"A rate of fire of about three rounds per minute would be possible." Only for a very short period of time – there those fire arms were apparently in heavy use before the flints would be blunted and the barrels fouled with balck powder residual that made loading very difficult and for that reason slow. |
welly1815 | 02 Nov 2014 10:00 a.m. PST |
I read an account that it was Uxbridge's ADC , Captain Seymour that found a member of the Royal Wagon Train and gave him the order to carry the ammunition to Hougoumont |
Major Snort | 02 Nov 2014 3:22 p.m. PST |
Summerfield wrote: The Baker Rifle used the same ammunition as the British Carbine. At the ranges that they were fighting there was no requirement for the patch. It is interesting that an up patched ball would drop down the baker rifle without the need for ramming or much ramming. A rate of fire of about three rounds per minute would be possible. The rifling would have been caked with gunpowder residue by this stage. The range and accuracy of the Baker would be not much better than a carbine. By Waterloo, all Baker Rifle ammunition would have been issued as ball cartridge and loose balls and patches had been discontinued some years previously. Some of these ball cartridges were made up with the patch pasted to the ball while others had no patch. Some battalion commanders preferred one type of ammo and some the other and after the Napoleonic wars the artillery (who were responsible for distributing this ammo) complained about the two different types of cartridge and requested that one or the other should be selected as standard. This ammunition was loaded with the ball still in the paper cartridge and loose balls were not dropped down the barrel. Even with the unpatched ball cartridges, the rifles were more accurate than smoothbore carbines firing the same ammunition. The paper covering of the cartridge still provided some grip on the rifling, although this was not as effective as a tight cloth patch. As Von W has already stated, three rounds per minute is fantasy. |
summerfield | 03 Nov 2014 6:04 a.m. PST |
Dear Major Snort Also I am using the scientific/statistical definition of POSSIBLE as in a remote chance(5% chance). Not the word PROBABLE (95%). This was quoting a contemporary test using small ball and powder. I was talking of inaccurate firing. Not aimed. The validity of the test I do not vouch for. These areas really need to be investigated by modern tests. I will go through de Witt Bailey upon your other comments. This was not apparent. Why was there still a patch box on the rifle? Stephen |
summerfield | 03 Nov 2014 6:12 a.m. PST |
The Ammunition Cart was probably curricle design therefore one horse or two horses in single draft. The lead horse would have the driver. This had a pitched roof to a box structure. Another type Ammunition Wagon of the RHA which had double draft. The boxes of ammunition was put on these. This is an area that is rarely mentioned. Flanders Wagons were not often used for ammunition. Stephen |
Major Snort | 03 Nov 2014 6:53 a.m. PST |
Stephen, Regarding the patchbox on the rifle; the first model had two compartments under the brass lid. One was rectangular and housed the cleaning tools, while the other was circular and intended for housing the greased patches. The second model, introduced c1806 has a smaller patchbox with only one rectangular compartment for the tools with no circular compartment for patches. It is thought that this, amongst other evidence, indicates the move away from loose balls and patches. For an interesting modern-day experiment on the various types of ammo used in the Baker rifle, check this video. I don't know these guys but they have obviously done their research well: YouTube link |
summerfield | 03 Nov 2014 9:30 a.m. PST |
Dear Sir Thank you for your reply. I have just published a book on the origins of the 95th Rifles and the use of rifles in the British Army. We will be continuing the story. The patch cover is the same size for the 1800 and 1806 models from the pictures. I have not been able to handle a real rifle as yet. I have done so with reproductions. Stephen |
Lord Hill | 04 Nov 2014 10:23 a.m. PST |
…so nobody can actually clarify what the Royal Waggon Train actually did? |
summerfield | 04 Nov 2014 4:51 p.m. PST |
Yes I can. I have written about it in the Smoothbore Ordnance Journal. Stephen |
Lord Hill | 05 Nov 2014 3:23 a.m. PST |
Hi Stephen, many thanks. I don't actually own a copy of the Smoothbore Ordnance Journal (!) – what were their duties? |