Cacique Caribe | 30 Oct 2014 7:10 a.m. PST |
If true, what sort of new information or skills, if any, could they bring to the table for the ISIS cause? Thanks, Dan |
zippyfusenet | 30 Oct 2014 7:14 a.m. PST |
We really need to rethink our catch-and-release policy for mujahidin. |
Legion 4 | 30 Oct 2014 7:31 a.m. PST |
Again … no surprise … Another example … the ISIS leader Al-Baghdadi was in US hands in a prison in Iraq. But IIRC, the Iraqis gave blanket amnesty … regardless he was released and on his way out, told the US MPs, "He'd see them in New York !" |
Chortle | 30 Oct 2014 8:10 a.m. PST |
Ultimately, though, the most overused torture song is I Love You by Barney the Purple Dinosaur. On the face of it, the lyrics may seem deeply inappropriate: "I love you, you love me – we're a happy family./With a great big hug and a kiss from me to you,/Won't you say you love me too?", but anyone whose child watches the television programme will know how grating it is. In the torture trade, this is called "futility music", designed to convince the prisoner of the futility of maintaining his position. |
Mako11 | 30 Oct 2014 10:38 a.m. PST |
How we interrogate prisoners. How weak our resolve is. I suspect we (some people in the leadership, who are sadly, in charge) will still not learn from this, and we'll get to fight even more of them again. What could possibly go wrong? I mean, look how well the Baghdadi release is working out for Iraq. |
Redroom | 30 Oct 2014 4:56 p.m. PST |
Morale Boost Marketing Ploys Possible tie-ins to AQ to try and make them relevant again |
Ron W DuBray | 31 Oct 2014 10:37 a.m. PST |
time to turn on the implants that will give them a fast plague . Oh right Sad that was just a game and book, not real. |
Bangorstu | 31 Oct 2014 11:17 a.m. PST |
If they weren't anti-American before , I guess they are now…. |
GROSSMAN | 31 Oct 2014 12:12 p.m. PST |
I say we should let them all go so we can kill them this time instead of capturing them. |
Cacique Caribe | 31 Oct 2014 12:53 p.m. PST |
Or … No. I better not put it in writing. :) Bangorstu: "If they weren't anti-American before , I guess they are now…." And Guantanamo is almost like a resort these days anyway. They don't even have to endure the offense of seeing an American flag anywhere near their area. Dan |
Legion 4 | 31 Oct 2014 2:00 p.m. PST |
If they weren't anti-American before , I guess they are now….
stu, these Gitmo guys were not picked up on the street getting some hummus. They were vetted per say and deemed bad guys. They were anti-US, anti-West, etc. before they were captured by the US/NATO, etc. … In some cases it was the first time they saw a doctor, did daily personal hygiene, got 3 good meals a day, etc. … Were they interrogated, treated harshly sometimes, etc. … yes, in many cases … But they are terrorists, etc. … |
Zargon | 31 Oct 2014 7:39 p.m. PST |
I've just been de dawghaused after 3 days for Err.. Attacking some of these guys friends in A-stan, soooo… I'll say nothing here, but ya all feel it. Hemph! Helping the Enemy seems to be the new Suave way of saying 'I Care' amount our leadership. our fault our vote. |
Mithmee | 31 Oct 2014 9:14 p.m. PST |
So maybe this time we will kill them instead of taking them alive. |
Legion 4 | 01 Nov 2014 8:17 a.m. PST |
And former SEAL or Delta Force type I saw on CNN or FOX thought at this point we may be better off to kill them than take them prisoner … but we still have to consider the intel value they may have. As we see, even if we release these mad dog monsters, some still make it back to the battlefield. Unlike in many other wars when POWs are released at the war's end … However, this war on terrorism/fanatical islam is far from over … |
Bangorstu | 01 Nov 2014 8:50 a.m. PST |
Legion – I don't doubt many of the people in G'mo got what was coming to them. But the standard of proof demanded by the Americans was appallingly low. Want to get rid of a rival for a girl in rural Afghanistan? tell the Americans that lover-boy is AQ. Problem solved. |
jpattern2 | 01 Nov 2014 9:12 a.m. PST |
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Legion 4 | 01 Nov 2014 9:56 a.m. PST |
I think, stu and jpat2, neither of you are correct about standards of proof … so I disagree. If you were correct than Gitmo would be much larger than it is. However, I'm sure like in any situation as this, some mistakes were made. But based on the what is going on in the War on Terrorism, there seems to me to be a lot more who should be there … or dead … Also check out this cartoon Chortle posted on this thread … TMP link |
jpattern2 | 01 Nov 2014 10:44 a.m. PST |
We'll have to agree to disagree on that, Ralph. More than 600 of the 800 detainees weren't captured by the U.S., they were turned over by Afghans and Pakistanis for bounties. That's a great way to settle a petty grievance. And the last I checked, more of the detainees had died in captivity than had been convicted of anything. |
Legion 4 | 01 Nov 2014 10:59 a.m. PST |
There are only about 150 or so left at Gitmo. And of those few that have died were of natural causes. Or commited suicide. Some were terminally ill before they got there … And what some in the US gov't have to get out of their heads, this is Not a legal matter. It's a matter of combat and war. POWs do not have to be convicted of anything … they are as the term states – Prisoners Of War … Regardless of what you call them. Even though some may have a problem where to put "terrorists" on the list. Criminal, combatant, pirate, terrorist, detainee, etc. … link A quote from the article 775 detainees have been brought to Guantanamo. Although most of these have been released without charge, the United States government continues to classify many of these released detainees as "enemy combatants". As of May 2014, 149 detainees remain at Guantanamo. As of December 2008, around 50-60 detainees have been cleared for release, but have not been released due to "difficulties" in "repatriating" them. The unrepatriated include ethnic Uyghurs, who were training to fight for independence from the Chinese government in Xinjiang province. Chinese authorities want to take action against them. |
Legion 4 | 02 Nov 2014 8:30 a.m. PST |
Just saw on CNN, one learned author, mentioned that a reasonable estimate may be that at least 20% of moslems are jihadists or islamists … So that is Many in my estimation … Interesting number … makes sense to me. |
Chortle | 02 Nov 2014 9:02 a.m. PST |
More than 600 of the 800 detainees weren't captured by the U.S., they were turned over by Afghans and Pakistanis for bounties. That's a great way to settle a petty grievance. This was done in Vietnam as a means of ensuring the loyalty of the "Little Hitlers" who lorded it over the Vietnamese. The Americans set large targets for arrests of VCI. The cops come up short, so they pick some random spods to fill in the numbers. Eventually the police catch on that accusing wealthy people of being VCI can milk them for bribes. Those who pay a bribe dodge the slammer that month. The system makes the governing regime hated by the general population but gives government tools to keep the population under control. It can mean that you never win the war, lacking popular support, but you lose it slowly. So, who knows, this might still be deliberate policy. It has kept the opium flowing for a good long while. |
latto6plus2 | 02 Nov 2014 11:10 a.m. PST |
Err, 20 % of Muslims being jihadist or Islamist (which is different from jihadist) would give you around 40 million world wide. That figure is obviously sensationalist (to put it kindly) arse. |
jpattern2 | 02 Nov 2014 1:11 p.m. PST |
Latto6plus2, you don't understand, it takes a *lot* of jihadists and Islamists to hide under all of those alarmists' beds. Hah! |
Bangorstu | 02 Nov 2014 2:28 p.m. PST |
Legion – the problem is that when mistakes were mad,e there was zero possibility of the detainee proving it. Why? Because there was no judicial process. Hence you've basically stated that it was entirely justified for the USA to pick random Muslims off the street worldwide and hold them for as long as you damn well felt like it. And you wonder why the US has an image problem… BTW that the standards of proof were very low has been well documented. |
Bangorstu | 02 Nov 2014 2:34 p.m. PST |
E.g. Murat Kurnaz… Turkish citizen, German resident. Arrested aged 19 in Pakistan in 2002. At that age wasn't an obvious terrorist mastermind. It took six months for the Americans and Germans to work out there was no case against him. Despite this it took the Americans five more years to get round to releasing him. He was tortured, and claims that many of the 'suicides' in G'mo are actually murders by guards. Anyone who served in G'mo has a case to answer. |
Legion 4 | 02 Nov 2014 7:51 p.m. PST |
I thought based on my study, that 20% is a reasonable figure. Regardless, there are a lot of jihadists and islamists (yes I know they are different)around … And yes, mistakes were made concerning Gitmo. Not all things that happened were right. I highly doubt any one was murdered by the guards. The US Military takes murder pretty seriously. I doubt things have changed that much since I left. We had classes about what is a war crime, human right violations, etc. … Again, that is the problem with a dirty guerilla/terrorist war. It can get very messy, regardless. I never said, the US was justified in picking up any moslem off the street. DON'T put words in my mouth. As you see things, which is very different than me. In a guerilla war, you can't always tell the innocent. And just like any criminal, many will say they are innocent. And another thing the journalist pointed out along with the 20% … The policy you speak of Chortle is absurd. One of the problems with those with more "liberal" leanings. They have a hard time believing that so many moslem can be jihadists or islamists, hate us, want the world to be under shria law, etc. … after all they are just like us … or so they believe. Now I think that probably 80% are kind of like us … the infidels. Just saw on the news an interview with that radical imam in the UK. He was well spoken, intelligent, etc. … but what he was saying would be considered madness by anyone who is not a jihadists or islamists. Another thing that journalist mentioned, is many islamists, are too quick to blame the West. When most of their problems are of their own making. And are blinded by corrupted archaic religious beliefs … I'm sure some of you will disagree with all I have said. Well save your breath. I'm not here to convince anybody about anything. Only stating an opinion. So put down your pitch forks and torches. And we can agree to disagree … |
jpattern2 | 02 Nov 2014 8:41 p.m. PST |
Oh, I can easily believe that 20% of Muslims "hate" Americans, in the abstract sense, in the same way I believe that 20% of Americans "hate" Muslims. But I also believe that the vast majority of those Muslims and Americans have no intention of ever acting on that "hatred," even if left alone in a room with a helpless American or Muslim, respectively. It's just big talk. Only a small minority of them will ever be a jihadist, Islamist, or Crusader. |
Bangorstu | 03 Nov 2014 5:32 a.m. PST |
The US takes murder very seriously…. really? Got proof of that? It doesn't even take friendly fire incidents seriously. If it did, it would allow serving members of its armed forces to testify in foreign investigations. American society as a whole is permeated with a casual disregard for life, so long as that life isn't American. As for the 20% figure… possible. But that means 80% of them don't, and Muslims are the ones doing the majority of the fighting and dying in combating AQ etc and always have been. |
Legion 4 | 03 Nov 2014 11:53 a.m. PST |
The US takes murder very seriously…. really?Got proof of that? Besides my military experiences, and the US's trying very hard to limit collateral damages. If the US didn't care with all the firepower we have available, places like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq would look like the dark side of the moon. American society as a whole is permeated with a casual disregard for life, so long as that life isn't American. stu, you have never been to the USA, Your comments shows your anti-US leanings … again … You only base your statements on what you see in the media. You'd be surprised how many Americans would find your statements insulting and inaccurate. … Muslims are the ones doing the majority of the fighting and dying in combating AQ etc and always have been.
Yes everyone knows that. More muslims kill muslims then the infidel/crusaders. However, based on current and past history, they are not very good at stopping groups like AQ, ISIS, et al. … If they could, the West would not have to get involved to stop terrorists acts against it's people and interests. If the moslems just kept the fanatical slaughter among themselves that would be one thing. Then possibly the West would try to broker peace. But with the fanatics causing trouble worldwide and the 80% non-fanatics unable to do anything but further their own corrupt leadership/government and produce second rate militaries. Incapable to doing anything with a force that even resembles a competent modern military. The moslems should thank Allah everyday, that the US values life much more then many of them appear to do …
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Gwydion | 03 Nov 2014 5:42 p.m. PST |
Legin4 wrote:
And what some in the US gov't have to get out of their heads, this is Not a legal matter. It's a matter of combat and war. POWs do not have to be convicted of anything … they are as the term states – Prisoners Of War … Regardless of what you call them Really? I seem to remember the Bush administration arguing long and hard that they weren't POWs – if they are/were then the Geneva convention would apply : •No pressure shall be exercised on prisoners to obtain information regarding the situation in their armed forces or their country. Prisoners who refuse to reply may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasantness or disadvantages of any kind whatsoever. But it was said it didn't because they weren't. And a lot of them weren't – they were civilians who were kidnapped and illegally transported to Guantanamo and tortured. If they were criminals they should have been treated according to proper laws on treatment of criminal prisoners, but again it was have your cake and eat it time. They were denied their rights as alleged criminals because they were POWs and their rights as POWs because they were criminals. I wish they weren't (real evidence?) helping ISIS, but I'd be amazed if some weren't after the Kafkaesque way they were treated. |
Cacique Caribe | 03 Nov 2014 8:30 p.m. PST |
This is another example of why we should stop coming to the rescue of Europe and other people around the world. We operate under the false belief that the spilling of our blood for them, and spending billions in the process, will be somehow appreciated. I found on Netflix the video The World Without US to be very interesting, particularly watching interviews of European and other citizens who express so much disdain against the U.S. and feel that the world would be so much better if we stayed out of affairs all over. However, the moment they are asked why it took so long for the European community to do anything substantial for fellow Europeans in the Bosnia conflict, those same idiots say that it was because the US was dragging its feet. theworldwithoutus.com YouTube link Damn if you do and damn if you don't. In view of our casualties, money spent in the conflicts and then money and effort to leave places a little better than we found them … I say it'd be better if we didn't for a change. Massive amounts in foreign aid that never stops isn't appreciated either. I say put a stop-payment on all future checks. It might be time to put our house in order first. A lot could be done back home with the extra $37 USD billion per year. link Dan |
Chortle | 03 Nov 2014 8:44 p.m. PST |
This is another example of why we should stop coming to the rescue of Europe and other people around the world. We operate under the false belief that the spilling of our blood for them, and spending billions in the process, will be somehow appreciated. You have been brainwashed by your media into becoming the world's police men. Prioritising international over national interests was necessary for commercial interests, not American citizen's interests. In your innocence you think that this has been a simple mistake, and that "a national conversation" can put a halt to this. Earlier this year a study concluded the US is an oligarchy. link |
Cacique Caribe | 03 Nov 2014 10:15 p.m. PST |
I've been very naive about a lot of things, but not everything. My family fought against the US during the Spanish-American war, so I do understand the colonialism drive during that era. But, after that, my family joined the US military and intelligence agencies and fought and died in Europe and Africa during WWI and Europe and Pacific in WWII. After that Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Nicaragua, Panama, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. I never did serve in the military, though it wasn't from lack of willingness. But my relatives always believed that their missions were to improve things for others, in one way or another, not just to follow orders. Maybe they were idealists. Maybe I'm an idealist. Anyway, as I've learned from personal life and from world events, real friends are the ones who still stick around even when there isn't some benefit waiting for them. Anyway, like Doc Holiday says to his companion in the movie Tombstone, "I think this might be a good time to reexamine the nature of our relationship(s)". Dan PS. Add $3 USD billion to Israel to the $37 USD billion mentioned in my last post. I just noticed it wasn't included in the list. |
Gwydion | 04 Nov 2014 3:41 a.m. PST |
Cacique Caribe wrote
This is another example of why we should stop coming to the rescue of Europe and other people around the world. We operate under the false belief that the spilling of our blood for them, and spending billions in the process, will be somehow appreciated. I appreciate US help and sacrifice very much – what's that got to do with this? I think the Afghan intervention was justified, necessary and not only acceptable in International law but required following the attack on the Twin Towers. I wish we, the Brits, and particularly some of the Europeans, had done more. I also wish we'd thought more about what happened afterwards and a lot more about the values we were defending – it shouldn't have just been about revenge. It looked like it was when we (the Brits helped, my comments weren't solely aimed at the US) started behaving like the people we were fighting against and not defending liberal democracy (if you flinch at the word liberal you need to look it up in this context – I use it in its traditional non-partisan sense). But I repeat I value and applaud the US defence of freedom. |
Cacique Caribe | 04 Nov 2014 5:12 a.m. PST |
Gwydion, I must apologize and clarify. Though my post came immediately after yours, it was never meant to be directed at you. There were several posts before yours that were, in my view, very disappointing. I'll try to be more specific in the future. Again, I'm sorry if I made it sound like my post was directed at you or in reply to what you had said. Regards, Dan |
Gwydion | 04 Nov 2014 5:32 a.m. PST |
Cheers Dan, Apologies if I got my wires crossed |
alien BLOODY HELL surfer | 04 Nov 2014 6:47 a.m. PST |
'They were vetted per say and deemed bad guys. They were anti-US, anti-West, etc. before they were captured by the US/NATO' being anti-west or anti-US doesn't make you a bad guy. It's the deliberate harming or killing of innocent people that does that, and that is not restricted to ISIS or Muslims unfortunately. I do get your point though. 'This is another example of why we should stop coming to the rescue of Europe and other people around the world. We operate under the false belief that the spilling of our blood for them, and spending billions in the process, will be somehow appreciated.' rolls eyes, won't comment for fear of being banned. |
Legion 4 | 04 Nov 2014 9:07 a.m. PST |
Gwydion, much of what you say may be true, but regardless, many in the US have a hard time deciding the Gitmo detainees status. Sometimes taking the moral high ground gets in the way of the reality of the situation. And ISIS, AQ, et al. may use Gitmo as a recruiting tool … however if there was no Gitmo, the situation worldwide would be the same. Many islamists and jihadists are living in the distant past. The fact that many refer to the West as "crusaders", etc. shows that IMO. But I repeat I value and applaud the US defence of freedom.
Being a veteran, with over a decade in my youth in the Infantry, being deployed worldwide … I appreciate that sentiment … |
Legion 4 | 04 Nov 2014 9:15 a.m. PST |
surfer being anti-west or anti-US doesn't make you a bad guy. It's the deliberate harming or killing of innocent people that does that, and that is not restricted to ISIS or Muslims unfortunately. I do get your point though. Yes, one can say pretty much anything they like or have leanings and polarization one way or another … But when they act on those things is when it becomes messy. And once again, if the US was not committed to limiting collateral damages, etc. … well, you know my opinion on that … |
Legion 4 | 04 Nov 2014 9:24 a.m. PST |
… my relatives always believed that their missions were to improve things for others, in one way or another, not just to follow orders. Yes I agree completely. Based on my extensive experiences and training in the US ARMY worldwide … Again, if it were otherwise, the massive firepower and capablilites the US has in its hands would demonstrate it. |
Cacique Caribe | 04 Nov 2014 11:09 a.m. PST |
Every military, no matter how noble and conscientious, will have the occasional cases of wrongdoing. Why? Because there will always be a few bullies who volunteer and enlist, thinking that it will give them an opportunity to realize their twisted urges. And when you put a rifle in their hands, or they have a handful of men under them, their true nature is finally revealed. As long as that military body does not make brutality part of its policy or SOP, and investigates every report of abuse and prosecutes the bullies, any criticism against that institution is unrealistic and malicious. The modern US military is still such a noble body. And has earned the right to be respected and supported. As for the politicians, and as for where, why and for how they send our troops to other countries, and as for when and how they want POWs to be caught and released, that is another matter altogether and the subject of this thread. Dan |
Phil Hall | 04 Nov 2014 12:09 p.m. PST |
Want them dead? Convince ISIL they are spies for the West. |
Legion 4 | 04 Nov 2014 2:36 p.m. PST |
I agree with all you said Dan … unfortunately many here and elsewhere believe otherwise. And never served a day in their life in any military service. Or knew anyone who has … |
Rick Dangerous | 04 Nov 2014 2:56 p.m. PST |
I also agree with Dan, but that's a little bit of a generalisation there Legion 4. Sorry chap, but a good number of my close friends are ex-serviceman and two saw action in the Falklands and Northern Ireland. I have nothing but respect for those who served, your good self included. It is a shame that we in the West feel the need to over analyse and demonise our own militaries – militaries (on both sides of the pond) with long and proud traditions of service for the greater good. Soldiers are the tools of politicians, sadly, but should NEVER be judged in the same light. |
Legion 4 | 04 Nov 2014 3:41 p.m. PST |
I understand your point about generaliztions Rick. I still remember when I was a cadet in '75. Students giving Heil Hitler salutes, flipping us the bird, calling us names, etc., etc. Knowing we couldn't do anything about. I was even told to stand down more than once by my superiors. Regardless I appreciate your respect, understanding and support. |