basileus66 | 25 Oct 2014 3:21 p.m. PST |
I wonder when "holocaust denialism" ends and "holocaust revisionism" starts? Well, there is a difference between those who explain that Auschwitz wasn't just a extermination camp and that actually most of the Eastern Jews had already been murdered when it opened (revisionism) and those who try to convince us that Holocaust is just a Jewish conspiracy (denialism). Any half-trained historian -what the Hell, any person with two working neurons!- would know how to spot the difference. |
Porkmann | 25 Oct 2014 3:34 p.m. PST |
I think you misunderstand Basileus. The figures concerning various KZ have been "revised" downward even by the staunchest exponents. To use your example of Auschwitz/Birkenau, the current figure is stated as approximately one million deaths. Roughly a third of the original figure (the one us oldsters were taught at school) That is a revision and obviously not a denial. Personally I do not deny killings took place at the behest of certain NSDAP & Governmental agencies but the Devil is in the detail. Sadly to question these details is regarded as sacrilege by so many. I question facts in all areas and this field is no different. To blindly accept what you are told as intractable fact is foolish and renders one nothing better than a parrot. My opinion is that the true horror of world war two will never be fully understood. The full extent of casualties, deaths, rapes and thefts perpetrated by all sides will never be known. |
jpattern2 | 25 Oct 2014 3:42 p.m. PST |
My grandfather saw Bergen Belsen firsthand. You can't deny reality. I agree, but according to some here, you can *doubt* its reality just fine. |
basileus66 | 25 Oct 2014 3:47 p.m. PST |
1,2 million of deaths, actually. Now historians have realized that most of the other 4,1 million of Jews assassinated in the East happened not in Auschwitz/Birkenau but in the mass shootings between June 1941 and February 1942, and in other extermination camps like Sobibor or Treblinka. There is enough documentation on the topic to need accept any "told truth". And I won't start with the 1,5 million Soviet prisoners murdered or starved to death by the Germans; the half million of Soviet citizens murdered; the 200,000 Roma killed or the 1,8 million of Polish citizens that the Germans murdered. The story of German occupation in Eastern Europe is a story of murder, genocide and violence. That the Soviets could actually restrain themselves from killing every German that tried to surrender comes as a surprise to me. |
basileus66 | 25 Oct 2014 3:50 p.m. PST |
And no, I do not find the Soviets as having the moral high ground either. |
McWong73 | 25 Oct 2014 4:02 p.m. PST |
Bill, I'll take you at your word that you are not a Holocaust Denier. Your current policy however means you are an enabler of Holocaust Denial. And as I said earlier, we're really giving the hobby a big boost with that policy aren't we? |
David Manley | 25 Oct 2014 4:03 p.m. PST |
"As for the decision not to allow Angel Barracks to promote his show on TMP, I think that is just common sense." I see no "common sense" in censoring the promotion of a wargaming event when TMP is supposedly here to serve the hobby. Especially since a number of your advertisers were attending the show and could have been concerned about the impact that censorship may have had on their business. Nor do i see any sense in considering TWW as a "rival". Yes, its another site, but then there are a number of other wargames sites as well. I seriously doubt there are many wargamers who will only inhabit one site (like it or not there are a LOT of TMP regulars who also frequent Frothers for example – yes, I'm one, and in fact I took a look there after seeing some of the posts here, there's actually some good stuff there as well as the material you object to, but its not like its now the only site I read, so hardly a "rival"). |
darthfozzywig | 25 Oct 2014 4:04 p.m. PST |
perpetrated by all sides will never be known. And cue the moral equivalency argument: "well, bad things were done by all sides." "certain agencies", indeed. Pitiable, yet still disgusting. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 25 Oct 2014 4:36 p.m. PST |
Your current policy however means you are an enabler of Holocaust Denial. And as I said earlier, we're really giving the hobby a big boost with that policy aren't we? Being for free speech does not mean that I support whatever anyone may say; it means I have confidence that in an open debate, the good ideas will prevail. Free expression is the base of human rights, the root of human nature and the mother of truth. To kill free speech is to insult human rights, to stifle human nature and to suppress truth. - Liu Xiaobo |
Editor in Chief Bill | 25 Oct 2014 4:43 p.m. PST |
I see no "common sense" in censoring the promotion of a wargaming event when TMP is supposedly here to serve the hobby. I think you underestimate the level of anger that many people in the hobby feel towards Michael Stockin (i.e., Angel Barracks, Blast-Tastic, etc.). This is the same fellow who creates multiple sock puppet accounts on TMP, will post something here, then rush over to Frothers so he can post a screen shot of what he did and gloat. |
McWong73 | 25 Oct 2014 7:04 p.m. PST |
Bill, you're enabling Holocaust Denial. This has nothing to do with free speech, especially as you already have set precedents that TMP isn't a free for all to discuss anything we like. I agree with those precedents and rules that you've developed, I had hoped that Holocaust Denial would be included in those restrictions without much thought on anyone's part, let alone yours. To think that Holocaust Denial is worthy of the protections of free speech is ludicrous. For some reason I think Voltaire would agree, let alone the millions and millions who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. You can't respect the service of those who fought the Nazis by enabling the sort of views which they made great sacrifices to defeat. Considering the cost it took to defeat those views, both in terms of national treasure and blood spilt, you can't exactly assume that it's "free" either. |
doc mcb | 25 Oct 2014 8:07 p.m. PST |
Good grief. To think that Holocaust Denial is worthy of the protections of free speech is ludicrous. For some reason I think Voltaire would agree, let alone the millions and millions who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. "Worthiness" has nothing to do with who gets free speech. And censorship in a good cause is still wrong. We grant all sorts of wickedness free speech and do so because it is good for US, not good for them. Truth must be left free to combat error. The solution to untruthful or deceptive speech is more speech. Of course i agree with you that the Nazis were evil-doers and the Holocaust their worst wickedness. Those who deny it, if sincere, need to be educated. Engaging them in rational discourse is the way to do that. Please consider the possibility that others here care as much as you do about Right and Wrong. |
wrgmr1 | 25 Oct 2014 8:35 p.m. PST |
The difficulty with monitoring a forum such as this is determining what is acceptable to the membership or not. The poll vote is a good idea. I voted yes on both. The world wide interweb has all kinds of nutbars (Isis), as an example trying to recruit new members to go to Syria or people who deny the Holocaust. I agree with Murphy, if you deny that Gettysburg happened then what kind of crazy are you trying to denying the Holocaust. It is all historical fact. Personally I'd like to see those who deny sitting in a room just like "A Clockwork Orange", with their eyes propped open looking at videos of the Holocaust until either they agreed or their brains exploded. JMHO. If I get DH'ed for expressing the obvious, so be it. |
Dn Jackson | 25 Oct 2014 10:40 p.m. PST |
One person, (nutcase?), denies the holocaust and a bunch of people start foaming at the mouth that such stupidity must be banned immediatly. I didn't realize it was time for a new mountain to be made out of a molehill. I need to get a new 'Kerfuffle of the Month' catalogue. |
Weasel | 25 Oct 2014 10:54 p.m. PST |
It's fun and games until a bunch of Stormfront types show up. |
basileus66 | 26 Oct 2014 12:07 a.m. PST |
Of course i agree with you that the Nazis were evil-doers and the Holocaust their worst wickedness. Those who deny it, if sincere, need to be educated. Engaging them in rational discourse is the way to do that. I would agree with you if the rules were consistent for everyone, but they are not. |
ochoin | 26 Oct 2014 4:41 a.m. PST |
I think you underestimate the level of anger that many people in the hobby feel towards Michael Stockin (i.e., Angel Barracks, Blast-Tastic, etc.). I disagree, Bill. I think you're angry with him. I think he's an irrelevancy & I think he should probably grow up & concentrate on his own website rather than troll here but beyond that: no real feeling. what he did and gloat. If you don't go to Frothers & read the anti-TMP thread, this is hardly a problem.
|
Gecoren | 26 Oct 2014 5:37 a.m. PST |
I am wholly for free speech (I'd rather know what a person really thinks). On this issue I voted yes. It is not a free speech issue – you cannot deny established facts. |
Cuchulainn | 26 Oct 2014 6:00 a.m. PST |
Is free speech always a good thing? Hitler was given free speech to promote the ideals of the nazi party during the days of the Weimar Republic, and that one didn't work out so well. ISIS being able to push its propaganda through the internet on the young easily led Muslim youth in the west, is that a good thing? I suspect the families of those who have been murdered by this cancerous organisation would know the answer to that one! This blanket idea of freedom of speech is all fine in theory, but with freedom comes responsibility, and deliberately muddying the waters about the Holocaust, is a fine example of when nobody takes responsibility for the lies and their effects, they are promoting. And speaking from a purely personal standpoint, the few true Holocaust deniers I have come across have all been anti Semites. Are there really people who question the existence of the Holocaust for non-political or anti Semitic reasons? I don't know, I've certainly never met one, but maybe there is a small number who are genuinely motivated to find if it really did happen, but I doubt it. And when I see statements which throw doubt on the Holocaust from people who at the same time try to sanitise the ss, well there's simply no doubt to their real agenda. |
Ambush Alley Games | 26 Oct 2014 8:12 a.m. PST |
As I pointed out earlier, the Free Speech argument is specious. Speech is only free if all speech is free (outside threats, false alarms, etc.). TMP has specific speech restrictions in place, so it is not a free speech environment. I find the open debate argument to be equally empty. The Blue Fez exists specifically for political discussion and if I were to start yammering on about Obama's birth certificate, carbon emissions, imbalance of pay between genders, or what-have-you, I'd be directed there – as should folks who post about Holocaust denial. Speech should be free, but it should also be conducted in the appropriate venue. A purportedly apolitical forum devoted to the hobby of miniature gaming is not the appropriate venue to engage and attempt to convert devotees of fringe political movements – or of any political movements, for that matter. In my opinion this is a problem for which the editor has already instituted a solution: The Blue Fez. Go convert the apologists and deniers there and leave the rest of us free to argue about how effective hyper-kinetic rounds are compared to modern ATGMs, what color some obscure unit's facings were, or whether or not the D6 is the One Die to Rule Them All. You know – game related stuff. Shawn. |
basileus66 | 26 Oct 2014 11:24 a.m. PST |
|
David Manley | 26 Oct 2014 11:34 a.m. PST |
"I think you underestimate the level of anger that many people in the hobby feel towards Michael Stockin (i.e., Angel Barracks, Blast-Tastic, etc.)." Maybe, but then personally I don't recall seeing much in the way of complaint here or elsewhere about it. Conversely though I think you underestimate just how irritated many in the wargames hobby were to see threads about the show on here deleted. And as I recall Mike didn't start them. Now you may say that some were started by "sock puppets", but we know that others weren't , but they were deleted anyway. nd we do know that some of your advertisers were not best pleased. So please can we not have such silliness in the future? It does make TMP took rather daft. |
KTravlos | 26 Oct 2014 2:25 p.m. PST |
what the devil is this? Seriously are we discussing another inanity produced by certain people not worth a dime? One that has nothing to do with gaming? A frankly I am do not get TMP. People say stupid stuff in the Boradgamegeek War-game forums, but they always behave properly even when idiots spring up |
Editor in Chief Bill | 26 Oct 2014 2:34 p.m. PST |
Porkmann's account has been locked; one of our readers suspected that he was previous banned as Bronze Goat, and I was able to prove that from TMP records. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 26 Oct 2014 2:43 p.m. PST |
…and we do know that some of your advertisers were not best pleased. This was fully discussed with the advertisers. There were advertisers on both sides of the issue. Advertisers were allowed to mention the show in their Hobby News stories. |
David Manley | 26 Oct 2014 4:01 p.m. PST |
So we won't see legitimate posts about it and other wargaming events, activities and sites censored in the future? |
Editor in Chief Bill | 26 Oct 2014 7:06 p.m. PST |
There will continue to be a ban on anything related to Michael until he stops his sock puppeting. |
Old Contemptibles | 26 Oct 2014 9:17 p.m. PST |
So this is how it begins. First the debate is allowed which gives credence to their viewpoint. You have your experts we have ours. But the evidence is overwhelming but that's because they are devious. They have faked all the evidence, the meticulous records kept, the eye witnesses, the transcripts, the trials, the film, intercepts, thousands of government records, all fake. They worm their way in, taking advantage of our open and democratic society. Turn it against us. Both points of view are legitimate, we can openly and freely debate it. Their argument is ridiculous. Everyone will see them for the idiots they are and once everyone reads their comments they will know they are crazy. So let them have their say no one will believe them. Right? By providing Holocaust Deniers a public form to debate the question does in fact provide them legitimacy. It is Tantamount to saying you are not sure either, so let's have a free and open debate. They slowly begin to turn the tables. Now it is wrong to say the holocaust is real because all the "facts" are not in, and so on to the inevitable conclusion. "The American prosecutors at Nuremberg decided the best evidence against Nazi war criminals was the record left by the Nazi German state itself. They wanted to convict Nazi war criminals with their own words. While the Germans destroyed some of the historical record at the end of the war and some German records were destroyed during the Allied bombing of German cities, Allied armies captured millions of documents during the conquest of Germany in 1945. Allied prosecutors submitted some 3,000 tons of records at the Nuremberg trial. More than a decade later, beginning in 1958, the United States National Archives, in collaboration with the American Historical Association, published 62 volumes of finding aids to the records captured by the US military at the end of the war. More than 30 further volumes were published before the end of the 20th century." link There is no debate to be made. It is a historical fact, the Holocaust did happen. To provide these people with a form for debate is saying you are not sure either. I find this discussion reprehensible and quite frankly I find it disturbing. |
doc mcb | 26 Oct 2014 9:33 p.m. PST |
The Holocaust happened and I have no desire to debate it. But I have as little desire for you or anyone else to tell me what i can or cannot think or debate. Why should I trust YOU or anyone with that sort of power? But i also agree with the view -- which is probably the dominant view here -- that TMP is better devoted to wargaming topics. |
Rebelyell2006 | 26 Oct 2014 10:18 p.m. PST |
By providing Holocaust Deniers a public form to debate the question does in fact provide them legitimacy. Hence the two polls. If passed, Holocaust deniers will be told to shut up and behave like normal people, or go be stupid somewhere else. They won't change their minds, but at least shame will force them to keep it hidden. |
ochoin | 26 Oct 2014 10:47 p.m. PST |
. Why should I trust YOU or anyone with that sort of power? Because we need some boundaries. WHY CAN"T I DRIVE AT ANY SPEED I LIKE & RUN OVER WHOM I DAMN WELL PLEASE???? Obviously. If you don't like parameters I could "recommend" a wargaming forum we both know that doesn't have any rules. My guess is you won't like it. |
jpattern2 | 26 Oct 2014 11:24 p.m. PST |
But I have as little desire for you or anyone else to tell me what i can or cannot think or debate. Strawman. |
goragrad | 26 Oct 2014 11:29 p.m. PST |
Considering that anti-Semitism, misogyny, and racism were added to the poll as reasons for expulsion, I see the focus in this discussion on Holocaust Denial as something of a false flag. Let the purges begin… |
ochoin | 26 Oct 2014 11:52 p.m. PST |
I think you might be overstating things a little, goragrad. Purges? No but flaunting your peccadilloes will be more difficult. And that's 'peccadillo' not 'armadillo'.
. |
David Manley | 27 Oct 2014 11:04 a.m. PST |
"There will continue to be a ban on anything related to Michael until he stops his sock puppeting." OK so a simple question to which a Yes or No answer will be fine. If I post a message about Blast Tastic will it be deleted? |
just say kwah | 27 Oct 2014 11:33 a.m. PST |
If I post a message about Blast Tastic will it be deleted? It'll certainly be insensitively edited if my post on the subject was anything to go by. And I'm not even one of Michael's sock puppets. |
goragrad | 27 Oct 2014 7:14 p.m. PST |
Actually ochoin, flaunting peccadillos will be much easier. There is a tendency in some quarters to see misogyny, racism, anti-Semitism in every comment. I rather expect Bill and the moderators to end up spending a major percentage of their time responding to complaints. And I foresee even more complaints when the complaints about perceived infractions don't result in the expected expulsions. |
jpattern2 | 27 Oct 2014 7:54 p.m. PST |
Fine. If that happens, then Bill can come back and tell us it's not working. Until then, no sense worrying about it. |
darthfozzywig | 28 Oct 2014 10:34 a.m. PST |
will be told to shut up Don't forget: that's also against the rules. |
David Manley | 29 Oct 2014 2:45 a.m. PST |
"OK so a simple question to which a Yes or No answer will be fine." I guess that was too tricky a question….. |
Gary Kennedy | 31 Oct 2014 9:57 a.m. PST |
Bill, The thread that sparked this poll request really made me feel this is not a place I want to be associated with. Having read through this one (which is remarkably more reasoned), I will try and explain why, as I get the impression I'm not the only one to feel that. Throughout this poll thread the question of free speech has been continually batted to and fro. I'm in the camp of those who believe that it is incorrect to say free speech applies equally across the TMP boards. Editors can delete posts, snip lines from posts, ban members from posting and terminate logins based on their interpretation of whether the ‘rules of the house' have been contravened. I was very surprised to find that a German member had been evicted, and will never know why, because it was seemingly an off board conversation (and I do agree it would be unfair on both parties to publish that when one has no right of reply). Equally, I have found the consistent theme in the posts (multiple) of another supporting member, in which he gives his opinion of the followers of a particular religion and what he perceives their influence to be in society and on those who don't follow the same faith. I don't know if you've had any off board conversations with said member, but the on board interventions give no indication he has been asked to refrain from such actions, and by extension that they are in any way at odds with the ‘rules of the house'. That is, I think, the very root of my unease; that no one from the official side of the board is paying the required attention. Please note, I do not therefore think you agree with said posts, but I am concerned that you believe they fall within the remit of the site to host. But wait a minute, if I don't like what the guy says, I use my right of free speech to disagree, right? That's the solution I think you've offered; if a poster is spouting what you perceive to be nonsense, tell him the facts, straighten his collar, and help him to the exit, case solved. Well, there is where I disagree with you, Bill, quite strongly. Others have mentioned that this a war gamers site for the discussion of things pertaining to said hobby. So when things involving a particular war are mentioned, but are not themselves intrinsically related to war gaming, hell sometimes not even remotely related to it, but they are disparaging or even downright malicious, then the board editors will not act unless a specific house rule is triggered. In the absence of that then a member can post whatever garbage they like, and it is the sole responsibility of the particular visitors to such posts to pull them up on their facts and point out the deficiencies in their arguments; is that what you're saying? That if someone rocks up, drops a half dozen ‘factoids' on why Camp X was not in fact a ‘so called death camp' but was a work camp that was struggling with the effects of Allied bombing, posts some citations, a few figures, a few links, then we'd better hope that someone else appears on that particular thread and has the background knowledge to refute those claims on an individual basis, or they can stand unchallenged because the rest of us are not Holocaust experts? On the thread that inspired this poll thread, someone of that latter nature did, thankfully, turf up. They won't always, or are we all required to become Holocaust experts so we can address such concerns as and when they arise? Because if we're content that the Holocaust happened, but haven't devoted a sizeable chunk of our lives to cataloguing it, then when the ‘biggest' expert on the thread isn't content that it happened, be it in detail or in whole, then there's a problem having a decent debate with them. If we break and call them a naughty name, or cast aspersions on their political leanings, then we might trigger house rule number whatever, and we're thrown out of the discussion, not the other guy who's staying inside the house rules and playing the man, not the ball. It can be argued that that means we can't have a post on anything unless a recognised expert is in the virtual room of course, but that isn't what I'm saying. The poll suggestion was specifically on Holocaust denial, and I suggest was prompted by a belief that TMP itself was not addressing the perception that its boards were being used to propagate, shall I say, an alternative narrative. That is plainly more serious than having the wrong coloured facings on your 37th Foot, or having your Scots Greys without oilskin covers. It is about writing off the murder of men, women and children because of their ethnicity, sexual orientation, religious faith or political affiliation. I do think that that is an important matter, and one that the board members should not be required to shoulder the full weight of confronting. TMP is different from a lot of forums in that it doesn't publicise interventions from the editors'. In other places a moderator may show up, explain why they are intruding and/or why they have deleted posts or snipped them. You don't get that on TMP, no one really knows if someone is being talked to off board, and sometimes their account just gets ‘killed' and you don't know why. OK, I'm talked out now. Gary |
jpattern2 | 31 Oct 2014 11:28 a.m. PST |
All excellent points. Thanks for that. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 31 Oct 2014 11:42 a.m. PST |
If I post a message about Blast Tastic will it be deleted? Now? No. Next year, if there is another show? Depends on Michael's behavior between now and then. |
Spencer Barrett Winchester | 02 Nov 2014 10:51 a.m. PST |
I've been here for about a month now and this holocaust denial stuff really bothers me. I mean, people are getting banned, apparently, for mentioning other gaming sites and gaming shows, or for anything considered "political" (whatever the hell that means), and yet here is a guy, bald-facedly claiming that the Holocaust "wasn't all that" and that the Jews control western history (apparently), but this isn't considered to be banning material, or even political in the slightest. Meanwhile, pretty much everything gaming-related that I have seen post here has been also posted on The Wargames Website and The Lead Adventure Forum, where I don't feel I'm watching trailer park T.V. when I'm paging through what SHOULD be wargames-related material. I have European relatives who died fighting the Nazis in the resistance. My father flew B-17s for 45 missions. I am shocked and saddened that making light of genocide is considered to be "good family fun" on The Miniatures Page. I don't think I will be spending much time here. I certainly won't be paying for a membership. But if the owner wants my advice, he will do one of two things: 1) Ban ALL politics, and not just the stuff he dislikes (and why, for the love of god, does Holocaust denial not touch off his warning system?); or… 2) Let everything political – absolutely EVERYTHING – be fair go on one part of the site. |