"Holocaust denialism" Topic

Racism, religious discussions, and politics are DH-able offenses, but according to the Editor, Holocaust denialism is not included in those categories and he will not use his powers as owner of this website to change that. Never mind the fact that Holocaust denialism is driven by agendas of racial and religious bigotry, it embodies the rejection of historic fact which is anathema to a community that is based on understanding historic facts and themes. Should Holocaust denialism (and the denial of other genocides) be a Dawghouse offense or a banning offense? Sadly, this needs to be a poll suggestion.

Um, what does this have to do with miniatures, and/or miniature wargaming?

What do stifles have to do with miniature wargaming? Or religion, politics or racism? The Polls allow the members here to discuss the rules of the forums and how to change them.

It's a question of forum rules, Mako11.

Rebelyell2006 thinks we need to make a rule to censor holocaust denialism.

I'm opposed to censorship, and prefer to allow free and open debate instead. But I will listen to the TMP community, if they wish to do otherwise.

Keep it in the Fez.

censor

Is it censorship to send a person to the DH for "politics"? I believe there is a person who entered it today for just that.

"I'm opposed to censorship"

In that case why were many threads and posts relating to the Blast-Tastic show deleted?

Ive been here over 10 yrs and have never seen a post denying the Holocaust.
I dont visit or read every post so Im not saying they exist or do not exist but do we really need a rule for this?
might as well say posting links to snuff videos is a DH offense.

Do we really need a rule to cover every possibility?
I'm guessing the answer will be yes as we seem to need entire boards devoted to every possibility.

ymmv,
RC

I would support such a poll.
I would also insist that it not contain 7 or 8 weasel options so that nothing gets 20% of the vote. We have had far too many of those polls on the past with deliberately designed ambiguity.

"Should Holocaust Denial be treated on TMP exactly like discussion of politics and religion?"
Yes or No. No other options.
That way the Editor in Chief can apply his usual arbitrary censorship. It's all up to him anyway, to enforce a rule he doesn't want in the first place.

For those who don't know what the hell we are talking about, there is a thread going on about "You must respect them for their fighting ability". Naturally it degenerated into "The SS weren't all THAT bad…" It then degenerated further into Holocaust Denial.

The Editor feels no need to DH or whatever over this. He wants to leave the responsibility of banning free speech on the shoulders of the tmp community, instead of acting like … an Editor.

I agree with john. No weasle room. Yes or no vote.

Having seen the deeply unpleasant direction a handful of members have taken some threads such as those mentioned above, I'd support such a yes/no poll.

As I said on one of the threads, it's like a 'normal' club: do the ordinary, decent members stand up to the fat, objectionable racist in the corner and kick him out of the meeting, or do we just ignore the elephant in the room?

Those who have an axe to grind against TMP will have a field day if they 'leak' some of these threads to interest groups outside our hobby, which is much misunderstood at the best of times.

Gents, we're judged by the friends we keep.

I also agree with John. That is a much better suggestion.

Yes or No.

Yes/no poll: another supporter.
I am reluctant to do this as I think it's self-evident such a topic doesn't need a vote.

I'm against Holocaust denial.
Should it be banned?
No.
I think its an odious and despicable lie to try and pretend it didn't happen. But I want idiots and morons and much, much worse, to have the right to say it, so it, and they, can be shown up for what they are in public.

If you ban it, the scum who say this will just whine about the oppression they suffer at the hand of the international Jewish conspiracy.

So let them post – DH them for politics where appropriate, for group attack where appropriate and challenge them and destroy their pathetic arguments everywhere else.

Yes to freedom of speech and no to Nazi apologists – through reason, not by adopting their own despicable practices.

I don't know, isn't that reducto ad absurdium? Some of this is is just basic. Is there a rule against discussing sexual positions? What about the benefits of stalking? What about how social darwinism might not be everything everyone says it is?

In theory, Holocaust denialism is already covered under politics. But apparently the Editor disagrees on that.

I hate to sound lawyerly here but IIRC the no-politics rule does not apply to events more than 10 years ago. I may be wrong about this, but that might be a loop-hole through which holocaust deniers might escape censure. So I would suggest the poll ask: Should holocaust denial be a dawg-housing offence and should repeated offences be grounds for the locking of accounts or banning of recidivists? Yes or No".

It is a sad state of affairs when the editor cannot see that some things just need to be done without having a poll. As I said elsewhere, is Holocaust Denial really on a par with polling for a new board on Tiddlywinks for example. His "freedom of speech" argument cuts little ice when you see how often posts are deleted and people banned.

Still, if this is the ONLY way then I'm with the OFM (drats, that's twice now).

Don't let it bother you. A stopped watch is right twice a day.

I trust that you are the stopped watch?

Opinions vary…

I hate to sound lawyerly here but IIRC the no-politics rule does not apply to events more than 10 years ago.

Holocaust denialism is an active subject of conversation amongst the more fringe elements of American, European and Middle Eastern political worlds.

Do we trust reason or not? I have no doubt that the Holocaust occurred, but it was evidently smart of Eisenhower to march all the GIs through the camps to see for themselves. Some things -- like genocide -- are inherently difficult to accept or believe, even if the denial does not have an ideological motive.

The evidence is there. If it needs debating again, let the evidence be marshalled.

Censorship is more anathema to me.

Of course Holocaust denialism should be banned here. There's no argument – it's even illegal in some countries.

If Lead Adventure can run a successful forum yet because of it's location it is unable to show graphics of certain WW2 German iconography, why can't TMP refuse to host Holocaust deniers?

What next, pro NAMBLA posts?

Just for context:

Maybe some perspective is good.

Things we currently censor by deleting, message edit or DH'ing:

Cuss words.
Mentioning Frothers.
Poking fun at cable news.

So you can frame the question as:

Is holocaust denial more or less damaging to TMP and gaming in general than saying a rude word?

Which is more likely to attract unsavoury attention?

(and I am fine expanding it to genocide denial in general)

It's politics and ban it!

It's sad when such a poll is needed in the first place. But if one IS needed… bring it on!

It's disgusting, and the fact that the editor feels is a matter for debate is odd. The Holocaust is not subjective, and it's denial is abhorrent. Allowing this to be a forum where such views are allowed most certainly impacts my interest in supporting what is otherwise a great site.

And don't hide behind freedom of speech BS on this. Are idiots free to talk about their love of sex with young boys? Are people allowed to discuss the best way to murder someone?

So yeah, great look. You can't discuss Blastastic but you can deny the Holocaust.

This really bothers me. I really don't want to be associated with any of these deniers. I have shown my support for the editor before by buying a membership, but now I wonder if I did the right thing.

In that case why were many threads and posts relating to the Blast-Tastic show deleted?

In consultation with TMP's advertisers, I made the decision that it was unfair to allow someone who had left TMP so publicly to then promote his show in our forum.

Okay, you've convinced me; should the rule then be to ban all forms of antisemitism?

Does the editor believe that the historical event known as The Holocaust is a fabrication and therefore requires debate as to whether it occurred or not?

The Holocaust is a fact, as far as I am concerned.

The US constitution's First Amendment rights only cover Americans, but I believe that in a democracy the competition of ideas and free speech should combat beliefs that it does not agree with – more speech and debate, not censorship.
- Joichi Ito

If you are concerned about free speech and censorship, then why are posts about politics, religion, and Gunfreak's sexual relations forbidden on this website?

Links to this crazy thread, and who is the crazy anti-Semite advertiser? Don't tease me. Name and shame.

I've been here over 10 yrs and have never seen a post denying the Holocaust.

And Chortle's post does not deny the Holocaust… he expresses doubt, but does not go to the point of denial.

So is the rule then to prohibit doubting of the Holocaust?

I support a simple yes/no poll.

And I absolutely agree that having to resort to a poll is very sad.

Splitting hairs, Bill.

As someone who has walked the grounds of Dachau, and as someone who had a fiance that was a first generation American, whose parents were Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto, that barely escaped with their lives, and to this day have never gotten over what they went through; well I would say…Who in the world can actually deny that it happened?…The proof is there…Nazi records as well as Allied records…..

Holocaust denial is like walking the grounds of Gettysburg and saying that "The Civil War never happened"…..

It would take a complete idiot to honestly actually believe that….

And Chortle's post does not deny the Holocaust… he expresses doubt, but does not go to the point of denial.

"Just asking questions" is a popular tactic amongst 9-11 Truthers.

If we absolutely have to have a poll, I'm w/ OFM.

Meanwhile, I'm Jewish, I've known holocaust survivors and am 100% sure that it happened. I'm offended by people who claim otherwise-- both because of the lie itself and the motives that almost always go with that particular lie.

With all that said, this is Bill's site and I'd rather just leave the whole thing up to his judgment. The fact that Bill permits discussion on a subject doesn't mean he takes a particular side. It's a cheap shot to suggest otherwise.

If you think that someone said something that is blatantly stupid and false, then, well, welcome to the Internet. There's a mountain of evidence that the holocaust happened: eye witness testimony, documents, physical evidence, etc. And that evidence comes from every possible source: the victims, the perpetrators, the Allies who liberated the camps, and third parties. Go and argue with him if you think he's ignorant, or tell him off if you think he's promoting this out of malice.

I looked through a few of Chortle's previous posts. Are we seriously talking about re-architecting an entire site's policy structure over one guy? I've been on this site since… well, for a very, very long time (and lurked here before that). How often does this come up? My own experience: never. Certainly it's rare enough that Bill can wield his arbitrary executive banhammer if he sees the need.

If this came up a lot I could see the point of having a rule for it. It doesn't, so I don't.

I think folks like Chortle should be allowed to express their crazyass, bigoted, tinfoil hat-wearing opinions.

I also think other folks should then be allowed to call them out as crazyass, bigoted, tinfoil hat-wearing goons.

Of course, if people are going to get DH'ed or banned, however, for responding to troll bait posters like Chortle, the Editor should just ban the troll first and save us all a lot of trouble and save TMP's reputation.

Of course, if people are going to get DH'ed or banned, however, for responding to troll bait posters like Chortle, the Editor should just ban the troll first and save us all a lot of trouble and save TMP's reputation.

No one has been banned for disagreeing with Chortle.

Some have been banned for being rude to the moderators.

Some have been banned for being previously banned members, just coming back to stir up trouble.

You should protest about the views of people you disagree with over major moral issues, and argue them down, but you should not try to silence them, however repugnant you find them. That is the bitter pill free speech requires us to swallow.
- Julian Baggini

That's a nice defense of free speech, but TMP has not been known for free speech lately. Not by a long shot.

You should protest about the views of people you disagree with over major moral issues, and argue them down, but you should not try to silence them, however repugnant you find them. That is the bitter pill free speech requires us to swallow.
- Julian Baggini

Hey Bill, do you remember when Paint Pig was DH'd for blasphemy? Why is that any different?

I am among those who have no doubt that the holocaust happened. One of my favourite things to see in movies is seeing Nazis gunned down. I loved the end of Inglurious Basterds.

However I'm not against people being allowed to be holocaust deniers on this site. It is basically just an advertisement that they are an idiot. Then I know.

I can read something like "well, it could all be allied propaganda" or whatever it is they say and think to myself "Oh, there is someone that I probably shouldn't ever listen to."

It would be like banning flat-earthers. If someone is on here saying something like "well if Vallejo has a colour named flat earth, it can't be far from the truth" we will all know they are an idiot.

With some of you guys it is tough to tell at times whether you're an idiot or not.

If I read some holocaust denying nonsense, I would know for sure.

I say we give them the rope to hang themselves, or at least let them buy it.

^^^^

Can't. Stop. Laughing.

:)

I hope that any poll will cover the points you think it should cover. I made a suggestion on page 4 of the original topic.

If Racism, Religion, and Politics are DH'able offenses, then Holocaust denial should be too.

Yes for me.