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"Holocaust denialism" Topic


148 Posts

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Action Log

10 Mar 2015 7:35 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from TMP Poll Suggestions board
  • Crossposted to WWII Discussion board
  • Crossposted to TMP Talk board


8,066 hits since 23 Oct 2014
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
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Rebelyell2006 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 1:20 p.m. PST

Racism, religious discussions, and politics are DH-able offenses, but according to the Editor, Holocaust denialism is not included in those categories and he will not use his powers as owner of this website to change that. Never mind the fact that Holocaust denialism is driven by agendas of racial and religious bigotry, it embodies the rejection of historic fact which is anathema to a community that is based on understanding historic facts and themes. Should Holocaust denialism (and the denial of other genocides) be a Dawghouse offense or a banning offense? Sadly, this needs to be a poll suggestion.

Mako11 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 1:31 p.m. PST

Um, what does this have to do with miniatures, and/or miniature wargaming?

Rebelyell2006 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 1:38 p.m. PST

What do stifles have to do with miniature wargaming? Or religion, politics or racism? The Polls allow the members here to discuss the rules of the forums and how to change them.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian24 Oct 2014 1:39 p.m. PST

It's a question of forum rules, Mako11.

Rebelyell2006 thinks we need to make a rule to censor holocaust denialism.

I'm opposed to censorship, and prefer to allow free and open debate instead. But I will listen to the TMP community, if they wish to do otherwise.

Tacitus24 Oct 2014 1:41 p.m. PST

Keep it in the Fez.

Rebelyell2006 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 1:43 p.m. PST

censor

Is it censorship to send a person to the DH for "politics"? I believe there is a person who entered it today for just that.

David Manley24 Oct 2014 1:46 p.m. PST

"I'm opposed to censorship"

In that case why were many threads and posts relating to the Blast-Tastic show deleted?

RavenscraftCybernetics Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 1:52 p.m. PST

Ive been here over 10 yrs and have never seen a post denying the Holocaust.
I dont visit or read every post so Im not saying they exist or do not exist but do we really need a rule for this?
might as well say posting links to snuff videos is a DH offense.

Do we really need a rule to cover every possibility?
I'm guessing the answer will be yes as we seem to need entire boards devoted to every possibility.

ymmv,
RC

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2014 1:55 p.m. PST

I would support such a poll.
I would also insist that it not contain 7 or 8 weasel options so that nothing gets 20% of the vote. We have had far too many of those polls on the past with deliberately designed ambiguity.

"Should Holocaust Denial be treated on TMP exactly like discussion of politics and religion?"
Yes or No. No other options.
That way the Editor in Chief can apply his usual arbitrary censorship. It's all up to him anyway, to enforce a rule he doesn't want in the first place.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2014 2:02 p.m. PST

For those who don't know what the hell we are talking about, there is a thread going on about "You must respect them for their fighting ability". Naturally it degenerated into "The SS weren't all THAT bad…" It then degenerated further into Holocaust Denial.

The Editor feels no need to DH or whatever over this. He wants to leave the responsibility of banning free speech on the shoulders of the tmp community, instead of acting like … an Editor.

Pup n Taco Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 2:06 p.m. PST

I agree with john. No weasle room. Yes or no vote.

sjwalker38 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 2:10 p.m. PST

Having seen the deeply unpleasant direction a handful of members have taken some threads such as those mentioned above, I'd support such a yes/no poll.

As I said on one of the threads, it's like a 'normal' club: do the ordinary, decent members stand up to the fat, objectionable racist in the corner and kick him out of the meeting, or do we just ignore the elephant in the room?

Those who have an axe to grind against TMP will have a field day if they 'leak' some of these threads to interest groups outside our hobby, which is much misunderstood at the best of times.

Gents, we're judged by the friends we keep.

Rebelyell2006 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 2:12 p.m. PST

I also agree with John. That is a much better suggestion.

Weasel24 Oct 2014 2:21 p.m. PST

Yes or No.

Ditto Tango 2 3 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 2:27 p.m. PST

DELETED

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2014 2:31 p.m. PST

Yes/no poll: another supporter.
I am reluctant to do this as I think it's self-evident such a topic doesn't need a vote.

Gwydion24 Oct 2014 2:38 p.m. PST

I'm against Holocaust denial.
Should it be banned?
No.
I think its an odious and despicable lie to try and pretend it didn't happen. But I want idiots and morons and much, much worse, to have the right to say it, so it, and they, can be shown up for what they are in public.

If you ban it, the scum who say this will just whine about the oppression they suffer at the hand of the international Jewish conspiracy.

So let them post – DH them for politics where appropriate, for group attack where appropriate and challenge them and destroy their pathetic arguments everywhere else.

Yes to freedom of speech and no to Nazi apologists – through reason, not by adopting their own despicable practices.

Rebelyell2006 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 2:40 p.m. PST

I don't know, isn't that reducto ad absurdium? Some of this is is just basic. Is there a rule against discussing sexual positions? What about the benefits of stalking? What about how social darwinism might not be everything everyone says it is?

In theory, Holocaust denialism is already covered under politics. But apparently the Editor disagrees on that.

Rod I Robertson Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 2:40 p.m. PST

I hate to sound lawyerly here but IIRC the no-politics rule does not apply to events more than 10 years ago. I may be wrong about this, but that might be a loop-hole through which holocaust deniers might escape censure. So I would suggest the poll ask: Should holocaust denial be a dawg-housing offence and should repeated offences be grounds for the locking of accounts or banning of recidivists? Yes or No".

deephorse24 Oct 2014 2:42 p.m. PST

It is a sad state of affairs when the editor cannot see that some things just need to be done without having a poll. As I said elsewhere, is Holocaust Denial really on a par with polling for a new board on Tiddlywinks for example. His "freedom of speech" argument cuts little ice when you see how often posts are deleted and people banned.

Still, if this is the ONLY way then I'm with the OFM (drats, that's twice now).

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2014 2:47 p.m. PST

Don't let it bother you. A stopped watch is right twice a day.

deephorse24 Oct 2014 2:50 p.m. PST

I trust that you are the stopped watch?

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2014 2:58 p.m. PST

Opinions vary…

Rebelyell2006 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 3:05 p.m. PST

I hate to sound lawyerly here but IIRC the no-politics rule does not apply to events more than 10 years ago.

Holocaust denialism is an active subject of conversation amongst the more fringe elements of American, European and Middle Eastern political worlds.

doc mcb Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 3:11 p.m. PST

Do we trust reason or not? I have no doubt that the Holocaust occurred, but it was evidently smart of Eisenhower to march all the GIs through the camps to see for themselves. Some things -- like genocide -- are inherently difficult to accept or believe, even if the denial does not have an ideological motive.

The evidence is there. If it needs debating again, let the evidence be marshalled.

Censorship is more anathema to me.

MH Dee Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 3:25 p.m. PST

Of course Holocaust denialism should be banned here. There's no argument – it's even illegal in some countries.

If Lead Adventure can run a successful forum yet because of it's location it is unable to show graphics of certain WW2 German iconography, why can't TMP refuse to host Holocaust deniers?

What next, pro NAMBLA posts?

Weasel24 Oct 2014 3:27 p.m. PST

Just for context:

Maybe some perspective is good.

Things we currently censor by deleting, message edit or DH'ing:

Cuss words.
Mentioning Frothers.
Poking fun at cable news.

So you can frame the question as:

Is holocaust denial more or less damaging to TMP and gaming in general than saying a rude word?

Which is more likely to attract unsavoury attention?

(and I am fine expanding it to genocide denial in general)

kyoteblue Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 3:38 p.m. PST

DELETED

Personal logo miniMo Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2014 3:48 p.m. PST

It's politics and ban it!

Cuchulainn Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 3:57 p.m. PST

It's sad when such a poll is needed in the first place. But if one IS needed… bring it on!

McWong7324 Oct 2014 4:02 p.m. PST

It's disgusting, and the fact that the editor feels is a matter for debate is odd. The Holocaust is not subjective, and it's denial is abhorrent. Allowing this to be a forum where such views are allowed most certainly impacts my interest in supporting what is otherwise a great site.

And don't hide behind freedom of speech BS on this. Are idiots free to talk about their love of sex with young boys? Are people allowed to discuss the best way to murder someone?

So yeah, great look. You can't discuss Blastastic but you can deny the Holocaust.

Ditto Tango 2 3 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 4:29 p.m. PST

DELETED

doug redshirt Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 4:59 p.m. PST

This really bothers me. I really don't want to be associated with any of these deniers. I have shown my support for the editor before by buying a membership, but now I wonder if I did the right thing.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian24 Oct 2014 5:09 p.m. PST

In that case why were many threads and posts relating to the Blast-Tastic show deleted?

In consultation with TMP's advertisers, I made the decision that it was unfair to allow someone who had left TMP so publicly to then promote his show in our forum.

doc mcb Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 5:09 p.m. PST

Okay, you've convinced me; should the rule then be to ban all forms of antisemitism?

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian24 Oct 2014 5:15 p.m. PST

Does the editor believe that the historical event known as The Holocaust is a fabrication and therefore requires debate as to whether it occurred or not?

The Holocaust is a fact, as far as I am concerned.

The US constitution's First Amendment rights only cover Americans, but I believe that in a democracy the competition of ideas and free speech should combat beliefs that it does not agree with – more speech and debate, not censorship.
- Joichi Ito

Rebelyell2006 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 5:32 p.m. PST

If you are concerned about free speech and censorship, then why are posts about politics, religion, and Gunfreak's sexual relations forbidden on this website?

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2014 5:33 p.m. PST

Links to this crazy thread, and who is the crazy anti-Semite advertiser? Don't tease me. Name and shame.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian24 Oct 2014 5:44 p.m. PST

I've been here over 10 yrs and have never seen a post denying the Holocaust.

And Chortle's post does not deny the Holocaust… he expresses doubt, but does not go to the point of denial.

So is the rule then to prohibit doubting of the Holocaust?

jpattern2 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 5:48 p.m. PST

I support a simple yes/no poll.

And I absolutely agree that having to resort to a poll is very sad.

jpattern2 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 5:49 p.m. PST

Splitting hairs, Bill.

Personal logo Murphy Sponsoring Member of TMP Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 6:03 p.m. PST

As someone who has walked the grounds of Dachau, and as someone who had a fiance that was a first generation American, whose parents were Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto, that barely escaped with their lives, and to this day have never gotten over what they went through; well I would say…Who in the world can actually deny that it happened?…The proof is there…Nazi records as well as Allied records…..

Holocaust denial is like walking the grounds of Gettysburg and saying that "The Civil War never happened"…..

It would take a complete idiot to honestly actually believe that….

Rebelyell2006 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 6:11 p.m. PST

And Chortle's post does not deny the Holocaust… he expresses doubt, but does not go to the point of denial.

"Just asking questions" is a popular tactic amongst 9-11 Truthers.

Wellspring Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 6:21 p.m. PST

If we absolutely have to have a poll, I'm w/ OFM.

Meanwhile, I'm Jewish, I've known holocaust survivors and am 100% sure that it happened. I'm offended by people who claim otherwise-- both because of the lie itself and the motives that almost always go with that particular lie.

With all that said, this is Bill's site and I'd rather just leave the whole thing up to his judgment. The fact that Bill permits discussion on a subject doesn't mean he takes a particular side. It's a cheap shot to suggest otherwise.

If you think that someone said something that is blatantly stupid and false, then, well, welcome to the Internet. There's a mountain of evidence that the holocaust happened: eye witness testimony, documents, physical evidence, etc. And that evidence comes from every possible source: the victims, the perpetrators, the Allies who liberated the camps, and third parties. Go and argue with him if you think he's ignorant, or tell him off if you think he's promoting this out of malice.

I looked through a few of Chortle's previous posts. Are we seriously talking about re-architecting an entire site's policy structure over one guy? I've been on this site since… well, for a very, very long time (and lurked here before that). How often does this come up? My own experience: never. Certainly it's rare enough that Bill can wield his arbitrary executive banhammer if he sees the need.

If this came up a lot I could see the point of having a rule for it. It doesn't, so I don't.

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2014 6:48 p.m. PST

I think folks like Chortle should be allowed to express their crazyass, bigoted, tinfoil hat-wearing opinions.

I also think other folks should then be allowed to call them out as crazyass, bigoted, tinfoil hat-wearing goons.

Of course, if people are going to get DH'ed or banned, however, for responding to troll bait posters like Chortle, the Editor should just ban the troll first and save us all a lot of trouble and save TMP's reputation.

Terrement Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 7:03 p.m. PST

DELETED

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian24 Oct 2014 7:10 p.m. PST

Of course, if people are going to get DH'ed or banned, however, for responding to troll bait posters like Chortle, the Editor should just ban the troll first and save us all a lot of trouble and save TMP's reputation.

No one has been banned for disagreeing with Chortle.

Some have been banned for being rude to the moderators.

Some have been banned for being previously banned members, just coming back to stir up trouble.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian24 Oct 2014 7:20 p.m. PST

You should protest about the views of people you disagree with over major moral issues, and argue them down, but you should not try to silence them, however repugnant you find them. That is the bitter pill free speech requires us to swallow.
- Julian Baggini

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP24 Oct 2014 7:37 p.m. PST

That's a nice defense of free speech, but TMP has not been known for free speech lately. Not by a long shot.

Rebelyell2006 Inactive Member24 Oct 2014 7:37 p.m. PST

You should protest about the views of people you disagree with over major moral issues, and argue them down, but you should not try to silence them, however repugnant you find them. That is the bitter pill free speech requires us to swallow.
- Julian Baggini

Hey Bill, do you remember when Paint Pig was DH'd for blasphemy? Why is that any different?

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