seldonH | 24 Oct 2014 2:00 p.m. PST |
John, I'm getting ready to start with the Crucible, but I have a quick question. Looking at the decals available from Ainsty Castings it looks like some of the names are not matching the codes. Or even some of the decals that appear to be for the tanks have the company codes for the combat cars. I know that these are silly details, and if the answer is, well, we managed to get them done however possible then that is fine with me but it seems that trying to use the organization and nomenclature described in the Crucible book is not that simply.. right ? For example I got a set of tank decals and they come with G codes that the book indicates are combat cars companies… Thoughts ? Recommendations ? or just a simple "don't worry about silly details" ? ( yeah because wargamers tend not to have OCD ) :) cheers… Francisco |
John Treadaway | 24 Oct 2014 4:10 p.m. PST |
Francisco I have to say I wouldn't worry about it too much. Dave Drake supplied the info for the numbering but it has to be said that it is a 'snap shot' of just one period in a decades long operational career of the Slammers from inception to them being absorbed into the FDF, so, as ever, things may well have changed or been moved around during that long period (as they are in the 'real world'). Also, to some extent at least, consistent as the books are, Dave made some of this stuff up 'on the hoof'. For example, he'd never contemplated the numbering of the transport vehicles until I asked him. And he had vehicles out of sequence (like Slick's tank in "The Warrior") which patently don't fit in to the taxonomy… If it concerns you overly, I'd assign the G's to some combat cars and buy a different set of Tank decals from Ainsty. Though that's all just an excuse to buy more toys, obviously! Tell me how you get on (and with pictures!) – I'm always keen to put stuff up on the Slammers site (current issues with it not withstanding!) John T |
seldonH | 24 Oct 2014 5:07 p.m. PST |
Thanks… got it.. I will suppress the OCD then :) I got one tank yesterday since I wanted to see if I could accomplish an acceptable paint job … The pictures available online look great and I was worried that I would not manage something comparable.. I painted it today and I like how it ended up so now I'm ready to get started.. Over the weekend I'll order some platoon sized sets… I'm considering using Khurasan Nova Republik for the New Ukranian Army.. The only thing is they don't have the ATGW so I either try to add one, not sure about that, or if you could tell me how much to discount the Sabre if I take the ATGW out I'll use them as proxies, I just love those Khurasan tanks.. Anyways, thanks for your answer, I promise I'll post some pictures soon… PS.. bring the site back :) … ( I know you are working on it.. :) ) regards, Francisco
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John Treadaway | 25 Oct 2014 2:08 a.m. PST |
I'd be looking for add on missile packs: Khurasan do some nice ones like these (on the Antargrans)
Could that work? By the way, the site is back up. John T |
McWong73 | 25 Oct 2014 3:20 a.m. PST |
I've recently been exploring the spare parts market for Zoids on ebay, pretty sure I've seen plenty of missile packs that could work. |
John Treadaway | 25 Oct 2014 3:39 a.m. PST |
McWong – have you an example you could point to? John T |
seldonH | 25 Oct 2014 7:13 a.m. PST |
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John Treadaway | 25 Oct 2014 9:05 a.m. PST |
That looks nice – is that cork you're playing on? John T |
seldonH | 25 Oct 2014 12:56 p.m. PST |
nope.. just the lighting makes it look like that.. it is an old Geo Hex desert mat… |
McWong73 | 26 Oct 2014 6:14 a.m. PST |
John, here's a wiki that explains the zoids customised parts link Also there's a large range of aftermarket conversion and upgrade kits for the Gundam models, including the 1/100 scale. Zoids are a bit of a grab bag as regards overall useability, but for something like an atgw piece there should be plenty. It's the larger guns and weapons that are hit and miss, often the pieces are hollowed out, and cast with only the top and side of the weapon. Gundam aftermarket kits are actually a better match, and they're all over eBay. Here's an example of a missile detail kit
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John Treadaway | 26 Oct 2014 8:17 a.m. PST |
Gosh McWong, they do look rather nice. When I was scurfing for missiles for our up-coming Salute game, I did notice some pre-paint Hobbyboss load outs for A10's that I thought looked intetesting for this sort of project but these look even better. I will do some more scurfing: thanks for the pointer:) John T |
seldonH | 26 Oct 2014 7:52 p.m. PST |
Quick question regarding painting…(I'm doing 15s) As you can see I went with a simple gray pattern rather than the metal effect because I was not sure about how they would look. I'm considering trying the metal finish but given that I'm not such a sophisticated painter maybe you could provide some advice. I tend to use acrylics and don't have an airbrush… going from black basecoat up to gray throught successive layers of wet brush of grays worked well with the simple gray.. For the metal I was thinking about the same approach but with metallic tones… Do you think that would work or should I go the other way around with metallic base and then dips to create the contrasts?m( I always worry that this second alternatice will look bad ) I did see the old topic regarding colors but I was looking for some more specific tips regarding which way to try getting the metallics… ( If it doesn't work I might stick with the plain gray and forget about the cannon )… Thanks, Francisco |
McWong73 | 26 Oct 2014 9:12 p.m. PST |
Hey Francisco, I've been using tamiya spray paints and washes to do my slammers. I've never been able to do accomplish a brush painted metallic finish on vehicles, and I'm not a fan of running metallic paint through my airbrush. Tamiya's TS-17 Gloss Aluminum is an excellent spray paint, and I believe it doesn't contain any actual metal pigment. In theory I spray it over a white or grey primer, then I apply a mix of GW's Nuln Oil 50/50 with GW Lahmian Medium as a wash over the whole model. Lahmian medium is the medium (or carrier fluid) they use with various pigments for their shade products, and by mixing it with their shades you can tone them down nicely. In practice I found that I needed to apply a satin or gloss varnish after the initial gloss aluminum spray, before applying the wash. More often than not when using acrylic sprays you will get what looks and feels like a smooth finish but is actually more like a fine gritty surface. These "grits" can often catch the pigments in the washes I apply, which causes what I call the stain effect of using washes and inks. So always put on a coat of satin or gloss varnish to help the wash (or dip, or ink, or oils) flow over the surface. With the wash giving the model depth and shade, you can then do a drybrush of silver acrylic paint (gunmetal is a good choice) over the hull to bring out the highlights. I'd stick to engine vents, corners and hatches and avoid doing drybrushing over large panel areas (unless you screwed the application of the wash like I did). If you want to use greys instead, and using a blend or wet brush approach, consider investing in some of the dedicated modulation sets sold by AK Interactive. link or link I've posted elsewhere about my experience with these paints. They're sold as being for both airbrush and brush painting, and while I would have to give caveats when recommending them as airbrush paint they definitely are excellent brush paints. These grey tones will allow you to work up to a very light tone grey, which would look pretty good on your tanks. |
John Treadaway | 27 Oct 2014 3:27 a.m. PST |
Francisco McWong gives good advice. Below are links to four pages on the Slammers site that details pretty much everything I have on metal painting Blowers of all sorts with rusty steel skirts. The short version is brown primer from Army Painter, masking and silver Tamiya can spray followed by a wash with Future and black ink mix. Then decals, details, weathering and matt spray.
As you can see from one of the links, I had to do some in record time for Salute 2013 and it.net is a fast method.
Have fun! John T link link link link
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seldonH | 27 Oct 2014 6:03 a.m. PST |
Guys, thanks to both of you for the advice… that level of detail is what I was looking for. The tips on applying the gloss before the wash sounds interesting.. If you don't do that what happens, is that why the wash will accumulate in what appears to be perfectly smooth surfaces ? I think that with all this advice I will take a leap of faith an attempt the technic… I was happy with my gray finish but if possible I wanted to get a more cannon finish. BTW, also thanks for the advice on the gray paint set, if not for this I think that is certainly another nice tip.. Ok… hopefully I'll have some minis later in the week to try this so I should get going sourcing the paint supplies… McWong, do you have any pictures of your work ? regards, Francisco |
McWong73 | 27 Oct 2014 9:15 a.m. PST |
Yeah, probably can hustle some WIP shots. Need to sort out my Flickr account. I'll post them to this thread once ready. |
John Treadaway | 27 Oct 2014 10:49 a.m. PST |
Oh, as another thought Francisco, this is a page with pictures of the results of me retroactively fitting Ainsty mesh baskets (and yet more stowage) to some of those originnal Slammers Blowers I did on the earlier link. link
You mentioned that the Blower tanks are quite difficult and challenging to paint being so smooth (all of which is true!). My solution is that I'm a big fan of stowage! John T |
Lion in the Stars | 27 Oct 2014 12:21 p.m. PST |
I tend to use acrylics and don't have an airbrush… going from black basecoat up to gray throught successive layers of wet brush of grays worked well with the simple gray..For the metal I was thinking about the same approach but with metallic tones… Do you think that would work That will work. May be more time consuming than metallics base and washes, though.
or should I go the other way around with metallic base and then dips to create the contrasts?m( I always worry that this second alternatice will look bad ) Nothing wrong with that method, either. Personally, what I'd do is stop by a Hobbytown USA or equivalent and buy a couple rattlecans of Testors Model Master "Metallizer" line. That line has a wide range of metal colors (several different aluminums, magnesium, titanium, carbon steel, stainless steel…). They're also buffable, so you can change the brightness of the colors with a bit of work. Downside is that they're a bit soft/poor sticking, so you can't easily mask on top of them. So I'd prime (gotta prime under those), pick a good "iridium" color (a bit yellowish silver), spray the upper hull, buff up some highlights using plain paper (not a sanding stick or anything like that, it will give you better control but take longer), then seal the heck out of it with a gloss clearcoat. Once sealed, then you can add some ink washes (really, really THIN washes) for shading and that rainbow effect Dave Drake describes. Oddly, blue is the hottest color of the rainbow, so you'd have blue closest to any battle damage or welded repairs, and a straw-yellow farthest away (can't really see the red or orange, and the green is a very faint tint over a rather wide area – look for pictures of stainless steel automotive headers to get the pattern). I'd also paint the air intake grilles a different color, just for contrast. Might even add some intake warning markings. And finally I'd brush-paint the steel skirts and make the upper surfaces of the skirts very rusty with bright steel down on the bottom edge. And stowage is always your friend! I have never seen a picture of any military vehicle in a combat zone that didn't look like a bag lady's cart. Only tanks on parade are cleaned up and bag-free. |
seldonH | 28 Oct 2014 12:58 p.m. PST |
Any recommendation for a reasonable Gloss Clearcoat ? |
John Treadaway | 28 Oct 2014 1:16 p.m. PST |
I use Future and physically dip the whole model in a bath of it. I do the same thing with Future with ink in it to get a wash (like on those Blowers). I've found other varnishes do tend to yellow over time (including Humbrol – though my use of it is based on older, non acrylic products). If you look at the shots of, say, the Antargrans on the Slammers site, those are Future/Ink dipped and then matt varnished.
John T |
seldonH | 28 Oct 2014 3:59 p.m. PST |
Oh, man you guys are pushing me out of my comfort zone, this is very different than the way I usually paint… :) but I'll take the plunge After all this fantastic advice I'll try this.. Prime black mask the steel skirts of the plchmb. spray the tamiya S-17 paint base colors to the steel skirts ( I like the greens, with some replacement panels ) then dip in Future clear coat ( OMG, this is strange for me, I tend to use canned sprays, but I googled to see what it is and learned how you more sophisticated modelers use it ) then I will apply a wash.. probably nuln oil or army painter dark tone.. haven't decided yet. do details on the skirts, rust, dirt etc ( I know, no rust on the iridium armor ) then highlights on the metal, ( edges staying away from main panels ), probably gun metal or liquid metal.. will see decals and then finally dullcote and prayers… of course I'll try it on one tank to see how it goes.. I'll probably try it next week… I hope it works… ( If there are any caveats regarding this plan let me know ) thanks for the help… Francisco |
Lion in the Stars | 28 Oct 2014 5:57 p.m. PST |
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seldonH | 28 Oct 2014 7:53 p.m. PST |
Great… BTW , it's seldon for Hari Seldon, and not Sheldon for the big bang theory :) :) … I appreciate the detailed tips on this.. this is one of those cases where TMP is really a great resource… cheers Francisco |
McWong73 | 28 Oct 2014 9:13 p.m. PST |
Be careful with the future wash, not ago future products are usable afaik. It was available under the Pledge brand in Australia, but has been rereleased with a new and no longer usable for painting formu. |
John Treadaway | 29 Oct 2014 2:51 a.m. PST |
McWongs right. I had to get my Future from the US. What I do know is it's one of the few things I'm 100% sure of under my preferred matt varnish (Testors) – I even use it as a barrier over decals and Army Painter dip. Good luck. John T |
McWong73 | 29 Oct 2014 7:14 a.m. PST |
Ok Francisco, here's some pics of what I was discussing. Sorry about the Flickr text nonsense – and really sorry for the long post and images for those with slow connections.
15mm Blower primed by mcwong73, on Flickr This is an Old Crow Blower after being sprayed with Tamiya TS17, over a GW white undercoat.
15mm combat car after wash by mcwong73, on Flickr Here's a Combat Car after being given a wash of 60/40 Nuln Oil to Lahmian medium. Putting aside the pools of wash, you can see the "stain effect" that applying a wash straight over acrylic paint causes, with the pigment in the wash staying on the open surface. There's a strip of unwashed hover skirting where you can see the difference pre and post wash. This effect actually looks ok with Slammers paint jobs, but can be a real buzzkill on lighter pastel coloured surfaces like sand yellow. In this instance the pooling caused uneven tones across the model, which led me to doing some touchup drybrushing.
15mm combat cars compare by mcwong73, on Flickr Allright, now we're back in business. The drybrush dealt with the uneven wash finish. Even if you apply the wash satisfactorily, I tend to do a drybrush anyway for highlighting purposes. Below are some pics to show how this painting process looks on non metallic paint jobs.
15mmSF TAS step1 by mcwong73, on Flickr These TAS tanks were done with Tamiya sprays, and I used masking tape to create the hard edged "dazzle" style camo. You really shouldn't use spray cans for anything over two colours, the paint can and will go on thick. But it can be done.
15mmSF TAS step2 by mcwong73, on Flickr The flare on the flash ruins the photo, but I next did a heavy drybrush over the entire vehicle in a light grey.
15mmSF TAS step3 by mcwong73, on Flickr Now I've given the entire model a wash of GW's Drakenhof Nightshade diluted 30/70 with Lahmian medium and you can really see how unvarnished acrylic is "stained" by the wash. You also really need to dilute the GW washes/shades – they're fantastic for this, but they are way too heavy with pigment out of the bottle, which can be a real pain in 15mm scale.
15mm SF TAS step4.1 by mcwong73, on Flickr Give it a fairly heavy drybrush in the same grey, and problem dealt with. I got four of these to this stage, with another eight hulls either washed, or at the wash stage – but again these are on hold here as I then went to another project – and this time with the varnish step.
15mmSF Flaming Swords WIP1 by mcwong73, on Flickr
15mmSF Flaming Swords WIP2 by mcwong73, on Flickr This is a Flaming Swords tank destroyer (with Khurasan RPK crew). With these models I sprayed them with an acrylic desert or dark yellow (can't remember if it was Tamiya or one of the FoW sprays) and then airbrushed the reflective green camo, followed up by a drybrush with vallejo Iraqi Sand. I then varnished the model with Testor's gloss coat and gave it a wash of 30/70 GW Seraphim Sepia and Lahmian medium. It's a bit hard to see in detail, but applying the wash over the varnish really reduced the "staining". This project was also stalled just shy of the finish line (got one more crewman to paint, and finish the weathering on some others) so I could experiment with some digi cam masks and the new AK Interactive range of weathering enamels, washes and filters.
15mmSF turret WIP by mcwong73, on Flickr Ok, I'm being indulgent. Sorry guys. With this project I started using satin instead of gloss varnish. I couldn't find any testors glosscoat, so used GW satin – works exactly the same as gloss varnish in giving the model an even surface with far less grip than acrylic paint. Note that matte varnish has far more grip than acrylic paint – never do a pre wash varnish with matte. I also wouldn't over think what you're doing and get tied up with over long and complicated methods. There's little point in painting your wargaming miniatures if they never get used in miniatures wargaming. I'm still enough of a fuss pot to use washes and enamels than dip though. I've happily used army painter dip on 28mm figures, but only once used it on vehicles (30 odd Soviet tanks for FoW) and while it was a good finish I found it hard to manipulate on more detailed surfaces, it lacked the speed of GW's washes and shades and it lacked the flexibility of enamels and oils. For a while I used Pledge a lot to make custom washes out of inks etc(the Australian version of Future) but with that product no longer on the shelves here I've moved back to off the shelf washes. Being really honest the latest generation of enamel washes and especially filters from Mig and AK Interactive are really delivering for me and as a painter exciting me more. Just stay away from pigments, they're a pain to use and are already superseded for weathering by the new enamels. |
seldonH | 29 Oct 2014 8:18 a.m. PST |
Those are great pictures… all of them… I'm wondering if doesn't actually get a better effect without the gloss and allowing the wash to pull so that later you can drybrush … Then again if the gloss coat sends the wash to the right places then I would only highlight the edges like you said… That combat car after the drybrush looks really good… and the tamiya silver appears to be great… By all means that is what I want, a simple approach that provides nice results so that I can get pretty models on the table.. these indications you guys have provided would appear very reasonable… What a great post… thanks.. Francisco |
McWong73 | 29 Oct 2014 1:43 p.m. PST |
The challenge is the nature of the sculpt, with all the curved and rounded shapes . If you're painting in dry and/or humid weather (which is Australia all year round) you can't apply the wash in sections or layers as the wash dries and you end up creating a real mess of tone between coats. I actually prefer the tone you get after applying the wash, but it looked a mess as I applied two coats and the two layers were dying at different rates. You can see the effect in the first combat car picture, on the far left of the hull. |
Rick Dangerous | 29 Oct 2014 1:47 p.m. PST |
Great 'how-to's' there gents. Thank you! |
seldonH | 29 Oct 2014 4:46 p.m. PST |
Thanks McWong, fortunetely we are entring painting season here in Austin… can't wait to get started with this next week… |
John Treadaway | 30 Oct 2014 5:57 a.m. PST |
McWong – that's a really nice set of pictures: I'd love you to do something in a 'how to' gallery on the Slammers site to answer these sort of questions: a resource to which folks can be referred. I know all our lives are very busy and full but, if you ever have the time… John T |
McWong73 | 30 Oct 2014 1:19 p.m. PST |
When that time comes, for sure. Certainly didn't take all the photos I have for the family album. |
seldonH | 11 Nov 2014 7:40 a.m. PST |
Ok, I just finished the future dip… later today I'll move to the nuln oil with lahmian medium … The dip was scary to me since I've never done something like that before but it appears to be working.. The Tamiya spray was pretty good, easy to apply went very smoothly… When I finish this first test I'll post the picture.. and if I like the results I have a full platoon of tanks waiting… At this point I must say this is a very nice smelling blower tank :) Francisco |
John Treadaway | 11 Nov 2014 8:20 a.m. PST |
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Patrick Sexton | 11 Nov 2014 9:56 a.m. PST |
VERY nice series of how-tos. Thanks guys. Pat |
seldonH | 11 Nov 2014 10:38 a.m. PST |
Ok … finished.. you guys are great…. I am very happy with the result.. mass production will start soon :) … Fantastic advice… if I managed to get it to work anyone can do it with this perfect how to… THANKS !!! finished prototype
flic.kr/p/q2nrth Francisco |
John Treadaway | 11 Nov 2014 11:18 a.m. PST |
Francisco I think that looks utterly splendid. Can't wait to see the rest. John T |
seldonH | 11 Nov 2014 11:21 a.m. PST |
I'll work on the rest over the next two weeks.. I had some free time today but I might be busy soon. Hopefully I'll be able to start gaming early next year … |
Patrick Sexton | 11 Nov 2014 12:48 p.m. PST |
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Armiesarmy | 11 Nov 2014 12:51 p.m. PST |
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McWong73 | 11 Nov 2014 2:22 p.m. PST |
Home run mate, looks better than mine! |
Only Warlock | 11 Nov 2014 2:26 p.m. PST |
Looking Great Francisco! We will have to play soon! |
John Treadaway | 13 Nov 2014 1:21 p.m. PST |
Francisco The more I look at it the mre I like it Francisco: a very subtle piece of painting – it's easy to weather very heavily (ahem….!!). Have you thught about stowage? The Slammers vehicles are generally described as being well laden down – especially the combat cars. John T |
seldonH | 13 Nov 2014 1:59 p.m. PST |
Yes, Richard sent me the stowage baskets and I got some stowage items from Khurasan miniatures so I'll certainly get into that on the next tanks now that You guys have given me the key to painting them… I was very skeptical of managing to get the finished product to a good result but you guys guided me effectively… Thanks for the compliments Any advice on attaching the stowage baskets? What about antennae ? I fail to recall if the had them… cheers Francisco |
McWong73 | 13 Nov 2014 11:39 p.m. PST |
I use the smallest gauge fishing line I can find, and use either a dremel or a hand drill to sink a 3-5mm hole at the appropriate point on the model. It's best done after assembly, but if you do it on your above blower I'd just be ready with the black paint to do any touch ups but you'll be fine. If you're referring to the Ainsty etched brass baskets, I'd defer to John Treadway on that one. My general take on when to paint/attach stowage depends on the underlying paint job. If it's complex camo, or modulated colour transitions I'd prefer to keep the stowage seperate, painting and attaching it after I've finished the vehicle. If it's a straight forward paint scheme then save yourself time and drama and attach prior to priming. |
John Treadaway | 14 Nov 2014 12:49 a.m. PST |
My baskets go on before paint (when I can – I've had to retro fit some after finishing and it's a pain) but my stowage gets painted before sticking on/in. I usually wash it with inks after it's in place to tie it all together. John T |
John Treadaway | 14 Nov 2014 2:50 a.m. PST |
Oh… and for the tanks (where I used them) I used bristles from a broom for antennae, drilled a hole and inserted them and fixed them with superglue. I then painted them red afterwards and – astonishingly – the paint seems to hold quite well. Antennae drilled into a hole and stuck in place
Before washing the stowage with inks
Ater washing the stowage
John T |
seldonH | 14 Nov 2014 8:25 a.m. PST |
Yes, so I attached baskets on two of my upcoming blowers, I might add stowage to the prototype but not the basket.. Red because the antennae they used were red ( strange ) are they supposed to be retractable ? Right now I'm starting with the next four blowers… Very excited to be moving forward with this project… Francisco |
John Treadaway | 14 Nov 2014 3:58 p.m. PST |
Francisco I'm not sure why the antennae are red – I know they can make them glow in the dark for visual recognition so I guess it's just a distinguishing colour. Combat Cars can have a long range communications aerial fitted that can be put up and held in place with wire stays but I've only modelled them in 28mm – done none in 15mm (yet!) John T |
Dave L | 15 Nov 2014 7:43 a.m. PST |
We have three cats. They seem to drop whiskers all over the place and my wife collects them for me to use as antennae. They can be cut to length, take paint very well, and look great on the finished product. It's not real easy to see, but the front tank in this vignette has one:
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