"Hessian Infantry Regiments" Topic
19 Posts
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Rod MacArthur | 22 Oct 2014 5:00 a.m. PST |
I am trying to model the six Hessian infantry Regiments which were sent to Scotland in 1745. There is some good information about them on Kronoskaf Project SYW . link However I can only identify four of the six Regiments on that website: No 1 – Guard No 6 – Grenadier No 7 – Erbprinz No 8 – Mansbach Most sources about the Jacobite Rebellion show the other two Regiments as Von Donop and Prinz Maxmillian, however neither of these appear on the Kronoskaf Project SYW list of Regiments. I therefore presume that they were known by some other names during the Seven Years war. Can anyone help me to identify them? I am assuming that, despite any name change, their uniforms would not have changed significantly. Rod |
Der Alte Fritz | 22 Oct 2014 7:49 a.m. PST |
Check out Christopher Duffy's book on the topic, titled "The Best of Enemies: Germans vs. Jacobites, 1745". Amazon has copies of the book for sale. |
Glorfindel777 | 22 Oct 2014 12:55 p.m. PST |
Hi, According to Tessin : 1. Prinz Maximilian. Raised in 1684 as Hanstein, 1690 Prinz Wilhelm, 1701 Prinz Karl, 1703 Prinz Leopold, 1704 Prinz Ludwig, 1708 Prinz Maximilian, 1753 Furstenberg, 1759 Gilsa etc (Regiment No 3 on the Krooskaf list) 2. von Donop. Raised in 1687 as Prinz Carl, 1701 Prinz Wilhelm, 1705 Wilcke, 1709 Donhof, 1723 Lowenstein, 1733 Donop, 1748 Ysenburg, 1759 Bischhausen etc (Regiment No 4 on the Kronoskaf list) I hope this helps. Cheers, Phil
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Rod MacArthur | 23 Oct 2014 4:21 a.m. PST |
De Alte Fritz wrote: Check out Christopher Duffy's book on the topic, titled "The Best of Enemies: Germans vs. Jacobites, 1745". I have got it. It is excellent, but does not help me identify what these particular Regiments were called by the Seven Years War, and the uniform information calls them by their SYW titles. Glorifindel777 – brilliant – exactly what I was looking for. Rod |
Rod MacArthur | 23 Oct 2014 4:41 a.m. PST |
Having looked in more detail at the Kronoskaf Project SYW website, I am having doubts about whether my identification of the Erbprinz Regiment as No 7 is correct. That website says that this regiment was not given that title until 1751. However that same website says that Regiment No 5 was originally known as the Erbprinz, was one of those sent to Scotland in 1745, and became the Lieb-Regiment in 1751, so I think this was the 1745 Erbprinz. Rod |
crogge1757 | 23 Oct 2014 12:38 p.m. PST |
I did a google raid yesterday and unearthed a rare 1769 published book that provides the Hesse Cassel regimental histories. Not the best structured book, really, but it does give some information. Even the title is rather obscure and reads something like Treatment on the Former and Present State of Armed Forces etc etc etc of Hesse Cassel etc etc etc. It agrees with Glorfindel777 finds above. No 7 Erbprinz / 4. Garde in 1760 and Leib-Regiment in 1761 In 1746 entitled Prinz Friedrich von Hessen (later the II. born 1720) It also went to Scotland. Not to be confused with No 5. Actually the entire corps was in Scotland only in 1746. There is also fragmental confirmation to the Grenadier regiment. No word on its partipication, but it is said that its commander, a certain Friedrich von Brandt got killed in Scotland June 1746 and was buried in Doncaster. No 8 Mansbach, general major Heinrich von (since 1743) before it was the regiment Waltenheim There is no word the regiment was in Scotland but little else is mentioned, so this sais nothing. hope this helps. Cheers, Christian crogges7ywarmies.blogspot.com |
Rod MacArthur | 24 Oct 2014 2:36 a.m. PST |
Christian, Actually Christopher Duffy's 2013 "The Best of Enemies" and Stuart Reid's 2012 Osprey "Cumberland's Culloden Army" give exactly the same composition to the Hessian contingent, six regiments, Garde, Grenadier, Prinz Maxmillian, Mansbach, Prinz Friedrich and Donop, the only difference being Stuart Reid calling the Prinz Friedrich Regiment "Erbprinz". There are some earlier Stuart Reid books showing a slightly different but clearly flawed structure, since it shows some regiments with two battalions, which was not so in 1745. The only issue for me is identifying these Regiments by their later names, since most Hessian uniform information is for the SYW. I think with all of the information in this thread I can now do that. General von Brand was not killed in action, but died of natural causes (he was elderly) at Doncaster on his way back South after the campaign. Rod |
Supercilius Maximus | 24 Oct 2014 3:47 a.m. PST |
As an aside, Riedesel, who commanded the Brunswick/Hesse Hanau contingents in Canada during the AWI, was a Hessian by birth and originally served in that army up to (I think) the end of the SYW. He was part of this contingent in 1745/46 and recalled he and his colleagues finding that they could converse most easily with the Scots in Latin. |
Glorfindel777 | 25 Oct 2014 8:48 a.m. PST |
Rod, An interesting thread. Please post again if you need any further information. Cheers, Phil
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Rod MacArthur | 25 Oct 2014 9:24 a.m. PST |
Glorfindel777 wrote: An interesting thread. Please post again if you need any further information. Phil, Taking you at your word, I thought I would just ask for your opinion on the Regiment which Christopher Duffy in his "The Best of Enemies" identifies as Prinz Friedrich and Stuart Reid's Osprey "Cumberland's Culloden Army" identifies as Erbprinz. It is clearly the same Regiment and it seem to me to be two possible contenders for this, Regiment Number 5 or Regiment Number 7. Details given on the Kronoskaf Project SYW website are: Regiment Number 5 The unit was raised in 1688 as "Prinz Friedrich" regiment of foot. It took part in the campaign against the Turks in Greece. In 1698, the unit became known as the "Prinz Friedrich Bataillon". In 1702, the unit was renamed "Prinz Friedrichs Regiment zu Fuß" (aka Erbprinz). When Erbprinz (Hereditary Prince) Friedrich became King of Sweden in 1721, the regiment assumed the name König (King's) regiment. The regiment was part of the Imperial District contingent during the Wars of the Spanish and Austrian Successions. In 1746, the regiment was sent to Scotland. In 1751, the regiment was renamed "Leibregiment Infanterie". Regiment Number 7
The regiment was raised in 1700 as the Prinz Anhalt Regiment. In 1727, the regiment became the property of Prince Friedrich of Hesse-Kassel. In 1751, when Prince Friedrich became the hereditary prince of Hesse-Kassel, the regiment was renamed "Regiment Erbprinz". During the Seven Years' War, the regiment was in British service. In 1760, the regiment became the Leibregiment, also known as the Vierte Garde. The Chef of the regiment from 1727 until 1783 was Prinz Friedrich (became Erbprinz in 1757 and Landgraf in 1760 under the name of Friedrich II). No mention of this regiment being in Scotland in 1745/46. Conclusion It was the 5th Regiment which was included in the Scotland contingent in 1745/46. Would you agree with my conclusion? Rod |
crogge1757 | 25 Oct 2014 12:07 p.m. PST |
Hessian Landgraves were about as breedy as rabbits. They produced sons by the dozend (not including the illegitamete Hessensteins) All those Fredericks, Williams et al really cause confusion. Checked again my sources. No 5 was Erbprinz Friedrich in 1688. By 1721 King of Sweden or simply the King's regiment – in 1730 became reigning Landgrave of Hesse. Died 1751. It is really regiment No 7, Prinz Friedrich by 1746. The son of the reigning Landgrave William VIII from 1751 on. Only then he became Heredetary prince – Erbprinz in German. Very tricky, really. |
Rod MacArthur | 25 Oct 2014 2:03 p.m. PST |
crogge1757, In that case the Kronoskaf Project SYW website is incorrect when it says that Regiment Number 5 was in Scotland in 1746 and also wrong not to mention Regiment Number 7 being there. This would be consistent with Christopher Duffy's identification of the Regiment as Prinz Friedrich, and he is very reliable. It also means that Stuart Reid has incorrectly given this Regiment the title of Erbprinz, which they did not assume until five years later in 1751. I like Stuart's books, and have several of them, but he can sometimes be wrong, then correct those errors in his later books. So it seems like Regiment 7 is correct. Rod |
Glorfindel777 | 25 Oct 2014 2:36 p.m. PST |
Rod, As crogge1757 says, very tricky indeed ! According to Tessin, the 'Erbprinz' title is used by a number of different Regiments at various times. However, I can't find any mention of it being used during the time in question. The query then got me investigating the Hessen-Kassel family tree to try and get a handle on who held the title 'Erbprinz' during the years in question. As crogge1757 mentions, this is Friedrich, son of William VIII (who officially became Erbprinz in 1751 when his father became Landgrave upon the death of his brother). I agree with crogge1757 that Regiment No 7 is most likely to be the one referred to as 'Erbprinz' (it had been owned by Friedrich, who later inherited the title, since 1727). As an aside, this might be a suitable subject for the Kronsakaf experts to look into (if the above is correct, they might want to amend their entries for Regiments 5 & 7). Interesting stuff even if it feels slightly in-conclusive! Phil
PS. 'breedy as rabbits' – I like it – brightened my day ! |
Rod MacArthur | 26 Oct 2014 3:08 a.m. PST |
Many thanks to all those who have helped me to identify these Regiments. I am happy with the final identifications of the six Hessian Regiments in Scotland in 1746 as 1st Garde, 3rd Prinz Maxmillian, 4th von Donop, 6th Grenadiere, 7th Prinz Friedrich and 8th Mansbach. I shall paint them up accordingly, when I get around to it. Lots of British and Jacobites to do first. Rod |
crogge1757 | 26 Oct 2014 4:28 a.m. PST |
Ah, I see it. There is a minor inaccuracy in the kronoskaf entry on IR 5. From 1688-1721 Erprinz Friedrich von Hessen (aka Erbprinz)" Thats right. But thereafter it was the Kings regiment all through 1751. In 1730 he became Landgrave Friedrich I of Hesse in addition to being King of Sweden. It is easy to confuse the two different Frederichs. IR 7 Friedrich (son of William VIII 1751-1760) became Erbprinz only with the death of Frederick I, before he was just a simple prince. One among many others. Kronoskaf fails to separate clearly them. Maybe the wording could be improved here. |
crogge1757 | 26 Oct 2014 4:32 a.m. PST |
Rod, Using kronoskaf as painting guide can be dangerous. During the WAS the Hessians had a lot more lace. Also they had nearly throughout dark blue breeches. The David Morier paintings of the Royal Collection will be a much better guide. |
Rod MacArthur | 26 Oct 2014 6:03 a.m. PST |
crogge1757, Any idea how I can get a set of the Morier paintings? I have seen odd reproductions of single ones in various books, but not a full set. Ideally it would be good to find a set on-line, but I am prepared to buy a book of them if that is what it takes. In the end they are wargame figures, so as long as they are reasonably correct, I am not too fussed with perfect accuracy. My British Army is painted in smart uniforms, like most of the illustrations in various sources, and not the more accurate scruffy individuals shown in the "Penicuik" sketches. Rod |
crogge1757 | 27 Oct 2014 2:03 p.m. PST |
Rod, Try this link: link Left figure is Grenadier regt IR 6, centre is Garde IR 1, and right is IR 5 Leib-Garde. If you never could figure why this period is referred to as "lace Wars" – now you know. I personally like this dress better then the 7YW one. If I would paint any Hessian unit now for my 7YW collection, I'd rather go for the WAS period dress. But that is just my personal opinion. |
Rod MacArthur | 28 Oct 2014 3:44 a.m. PST |
Crogge1757, Downloaded. Many thanks, And even more brilliant, there are loads of other Morier paintings on that Royal Collection website. Rod |
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