"French battalion guns" Topic
11 Posts
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alan in canberra | 14 Oct 2014 4:05 a.m. PST |
Does anyone know if the crews of these light guns wore infantry or artillery uniforms or were infantry under instruction by an artillery NCO? Regards Alan |
xxxxxxx | 14 Oct 2014 8:20 a.m. PST |
As far as I know, all of the "compagnie d'artillerie régimentaire" were to be infantrymen provided by the regiment – to be trained by the artillery and train units attached to the parent division. See : link There is an interesting reference from August 1812 in the linked article : the maréchal Oudinot had removed these pieces from his regiments as more trouble than they were worth and left them in the rear. Napoléon orders that he must use them as intended. So, if you are playing 1st Polotsk or the engagements in July/August for the French IIe corps, you probably should not deploy l'artillerie régimentaire. I don't know if pieces were ever brought up for 2nd Polotsk in October. - Sasha |
Dn Jackson | 14 Oct 2014 8:27 a.m. PST |
Going from memory, but in the Osprey on the Swiss in French service I believe it showed the Neuchateau Battalion artillery wearing an artillery uniform. |
xxxxxxx | 14 Oct 2014 8:58 a.m. PST |
For the "bataillon du prince de Neufchâtel" …. Well, the were not "French", were they? And they were a special personal unit of the prince Berthier. From the decree of 27 August 1808, a special combined engineering and artillery company was added to the battalion : 32 artillerymen, with two 6-lber cannon, 16 sappers and 16 train soldiers. These were uniformed distinctly, but not like French artillerie or sapeurs. Instead …. Artillery : blue habit with blue lapels with yellow piping, red cuffs, yellow collars. vertical pockets, blue vest, blue trousers, red epaulettes Sappers : blue habit with yellow lapels, black cuffs, blue collars. vertical pockets, blue vest, blue trousers, red epaulettes Train : blue habit with blue lapels with yellow piping, iron gray cuffs, yellow collars. vertical pockets, blue vest, blue trousers, red epaulettes It is also not clear if this specialist company actually served with the battalion or as a spearate headquarters support unit. For example, their commander, capitaine Charles-Frédéric Jeanrenaud (Motiers-Travers 1772 – Besançon 1843), was present at Borodino even though the battalion was still en route to join the army. He had been promoted on 17 Septemebr 1808 from the French artillerie à cheval to be "capitaine en 1er commandant l'artillerie du prince de Neufchâtel". - Sasha |
Greystreak | 14 Oct 2014 10:38 a.m. PST |
Touché, Sasha! |
Dn Jackson | 14 Oct 2014 9:28 p.m. PST |
"For the "bataillon du prince de Neufchâtel" …. Well, the were not "French", were they? And they were a special personal unit of the prince Berthier." True enough. However, they were a unit in French service, not an allied unit. I was assuming they followed the French model. |
Mserafin | 15 Oct 2014 9:24 a.m. PST |
IIRC, Funken has a plate of these, and I think they're kind of a mix of infantry and artillery features. I'll try to remember to have a look tonight. |
seneffe | 15 Oct 2014 3:29 p.m. PST |
The crews were infantrymen drawn from the regiments and IIRC trained by the relevant divisional artillery companies. Mserafin is right- the uniform for gun companies of ordinary French line regiments was basically an artilleryman's coat with blue lapels and collar piped red, worn with the other items of a standard infantry uniform. Fusilier type shoulder straps but some regiments gave their gunners red bands round the top of the shako. For the gun companies of light regiments, the uniform was similar, with blue lapels and collars and red piping, so essentially a gunners coat again, but white not yellow metal buttons. |
Mserafin | 15 Oct 2014 6:25 p.m. PST |
OK, I checked Funcken and it pretty much agrees with seneffe – artillery uniforms. They show one guy (full dress) with an artillerist's cartridge pouch (crossed guns). Red trimmed shoulder straps, no epaulettes, sabre-briquet. Curiously, the more working-day figure has only the short sword, although he is holding a musket. The full-dress guy has a yellow-red-yellow(gold?) sword knot, the other one has a plain red one. Both have red bands on the top and bottom of the shako, with a yellow and red cord for full dress. both have short, red carrot-shaped plumes. The working-dress figure seems to be from a legere regiment, with white metal buttons and shako plate. He has white trousers, and the blue waistcoat that would be common to both Artillery and Legere. It's hard to tell with the straps, but it sort of looks like his coat has legere cut, with the pointed lapels. There are also a couple of drivers, one from the back who looks like a typical French arty driver, but with a blue coat instead of grey. It's a back shot, so no lapels, but everything is blue piped red, with white grenades on the turnbacks. The other guy looks like a fusilier who is ready to help move the gun and is regretting some of his life choices. This is all circa 1811. Elting/Knotel shows pretty much the same thing, but with a white waistcoat and trousers, in 1812. If you give me an email or phone #, I can try to send you a quick shot of the pic from my phone. |
xxxxxxx | 16 Oct 2014 1:14 p.m. PST |
The Funcken illustrations and those of H. Knötel published by the late colonel Elting trace to the commandant Bucquoy …. Les uniformes du 1er empire : serie n°128 : l'artillerie regimentaire édition de 1923 9 cartes numérotées de 1 à 9 illustrees et signees par Benigni tirage à 500 exemplaires link These plates were developed from the "Bardin" regulations of 19 January 1812. The Bardin regulations did not go into practical effect until after the Russian campaign, and there were not too many "battalion guns" left by then – and I do not know much about the degree to whihc the French attempted to re-establish these in 1813-1814. There is also a plate by RIGO (La Plumet No. 164). Prior to the issuance of the Bardin regulations, there was a directive from the ministry of war to the ministry of war adminitration (responsible for uniforms) to the effect that "les sous-officiers et soldats des compagnies d'artillerie régimentaire doivent être habillés, savoir: les canonniers comme l'artillerie à pied, et les hommes attachés au service des chevaux, comme les soldats du train, en ayant soin que l'habit de ces derniers soit de la couleur affectée au régiment dont ils font partie." [The under-officers and soldiers of the regimental artillery companies should be dressed as follows : the canoneers like the foot artillery, and the men atttached to the service of the horses like train soldiers, but taking are that the uniform coats for these latter are to be of the coloration of the regiment to which they are attached (i.e. – like ligne or like légère).] This was effected in the Bardiin regulations, but there is no evidence that I know about of any prior implementation. Otherwise, the only instruction as to uniforms given earlier was that the effected troops would continue to wear the uniform of the infantry, but have a unique plume that was black and red. In Tradition magazine N° 154, the following description is given for the period 1810-1811: "Les canonniers portent la tenue des grenadiers de l'infanterie à la différence du pompon tronconique et l'absence de chevrons écarlates sur le shako. L'armement est celui des grenadiers. Dans l'infanterie légère la tenue est la même que pour celle de la ligne, avec les revers coupés carrément par le bas. Les boutons sont ceux en usage dans le corps." (based on interpretation of period images). By the way, here is for Italian troops: link link link link And even one for Naples: link - Sasha |
seneffe | 16 Oct 2014 3:11 p.m. PST |
I don't know about the Funckens, but I don't think much if any of Herbert Knotel's French work would trace its sourcing directly through Bucquoy/Benigni, although the two may have shared some earlier sourcing such as Berka/Bourgeois of Hamburg etc. I think for eg that some of his cavalry musician illustrations go straight back to the famous/infamous Marckolsheim manuscript, without some of the 'corrections and amendments' Benigni made to these in the 1920s. Neither of the H Knotel illustrations in Elting of gun company troops correspond very closely either to the lovely Benigni illustrations linked above, or to the ministry of war circulars quoted. No one can be sure, as Knotel didn't leave specific sourcing notes for these plates as far as I know, but I think they trace back probably through his father's notes and sketches, to more contemporary sources. |
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