"privacy versus anonymous attacks" Topic

First, there are certainly many valid reasons why someone might want to use a pseudonym on an internet forum. I choose to identify myself here, but I stopped my Facebook account while I was teaching at a high school, because it avoided some potential issues.

However, we've just had a fake Tango starting dubious threads, and a repeat frothing troll attacking several of us.

There is a big ethical difference between preserving one's privacy for good reasons, and hiding behind anonymity to cause trouble.

I think it is high time to limit the ability of new accounts to post for some brief period -- three days perhaps?

And I think I'm going to make it a personal practice frpm now on to check routinely the membership information on any problematical post, and simply to not respond if the author is anonymous.

If we are discussing AWI uniforms and standards, there's no need to know who I am dealing with, and privacy is entirely reasonable. But for the sort of trolling and drive-by personal attacks we've had recently, methinks I'll only respond to known members.

Or have new account's posts under a review period for a few days/posts. They are censored till reviewed.

Roll on TMP4 presumably

I would but it doesn't bother me, I just posted a possability if the editor is interested.

Freedom isn't free. Any right we establish through the social contract has intrinsic costs associated with it. One of the costs of the free communication we have on the Internet is the responsibility to look beyond face value of things before replying. The best way to discourage aberrant behaviour is with reasoned and metered responses.

Well said, etotheipi!
Common sense and refusing to rise to anger when baited are the best defense against overt and covert posters alike. No special procedures or protections are needed. Water off a duck's back.
No need for 'newbie police' either. That will only limit the ability of new blood (which is already hard to find) from joining and enriching TMP. Punish people for what the do do, not what they might do.
Rod Robertson.

TMP gets the best & it gets the worst.
It doesn't bother me (usually) to see a "spill" or two before the editor(s) clean it up.

If I was curious, I'd wonder why someone who was banned insists on haunting the joint. Says more about their problems than TMP's methinks.

What disturbed me most, I think, was the fake Tango. That is simply dishonest, and has the potential to do real harm, e.g. when the real member is somewhat controversial already, and then members seem to see him posting even more problematical material.

Ignoring a troll is one thing -- I agree that is the best response, though I don't aways follow that good advice. But false identities are a much more serious threat to the community.

Not interested in "internet wars". Not interested in arguing politics on a forum & a wargaming one at that!

Some people clearly have issues with TMP. I'm not interested in offering them counselling either.

I use a psuedonym because I have stalkers.

Doc mcp is not the same as doc mcb; that was not the case with the fake Tango.

And privacy is an often valid consideration, a reasonable objective. Deliberately invading people's privacy for no good reason is despicable. As is taking cheap shots from behind a cloud of anonymity.

These are difficult problems to deal with effectively on the internet, obviously. But I think a short waiting period is one useful precaution.

My God, how old are you?

Old enough to know better.

How old am I? Almost 68. Why?

Might be more relevant to ask how old doc mc b is!

Might be more relevant to ask how old doc mc b is!

I think he was.

And privacy is an often valid consideration, a reasonable objective. Deliberately invading people's privacy for no good reason is despicable. As is taking cheap shots from behind a cloud of anonymity.

I agree with all three of those statements. I also see them as separate concerns.

I think it is high time to limit the ability of new accounts to post for some brief period -- three days perhaps?

I hate to do it, because it penalizes people who are in their first rush of excitement at finding TMP… but I think you are right.

I know that several forums I post on require new posts to be moderated before being seen. That's a lot of work for a moderator, of course.

Maybe just some boards? If that is technologically feasible.

etotheipi, yes, but they do impinge on each other. Requiring everyone to post under their real name and email would stop most trolling. But that would be a high cost in terms of privacy.

I doubt there is a good solution or somebody would havefound it by now.

But there is this, which I have posted elsewhere:

link

I think its in hand with Editor Bill and team, I got miffed off with a green Neandertal the other day starting on T1 posts, soon enough the thing's postings came up 'deleted' this most likely sent him into lots of howling and stomping under his bridge and a feeling of helplessness as the 'man' (Bill and Co) was on his case. Guys just send in a notice to Bill+ they have the power to censor idiots :a ham

How old am I? Almost 68. Why?

No, not you! I meant, our little -stirring " friend".

they do impinge on each other.

Absolutely. I just think that it is best to treat them as separate, but interrelated things. To an extent you do that in your posts when you state that a gain in one area (protection from attack) will result in a loss in another (immediate access to forums). Your next bit is also an example of treating the concerns separately and managing the trade-space:

Requiring everyone to post under their real name and email would stop most trolling. But that would be a high cost in terms of privacy.

Probably not. Also, not even vaguely enforceable on the Internet. The Internet has is no repudiation and technologies that provide repudiation services using the Internet as infrastructure are IMHO like putting a padlock on a paper bag.

While I already have an account here (and possibly legions of alternate identities, AFAYK), I am against restricting initial postings.

I agree with doc mcb's characterization of the trade-off but feel that the cost in terms of loss of legitimate posts is greater than what we gain by implementing it. Also, I believe the aforementioned padlock on a paper bag applies here and the personnel costs to constantly monitor this broad an area are extremely high.

And, to be honest, I often get a little boosted feeling of self-superiority every time a post reminds me that I am no longer infantile enough to enrich the world by illustrating the dictionary pages where the words for genitalia are found, but other people still are.

The thing is Andrew, this is between you and Bill, and you should discuss it with him privately. Everyone knows about Billīs other website, even though it is truly none of our business, and those who care have already left.
Trolling in the name of dialogue is infantile, and guaranteed to leave you with an unsatisfactory result.

Or have new account's posts under a review period for a few days/posts. They are censored till reviewed.

Nice idea. Perhaps it could be turned on and off? It could be kept on until the frothers calm down and then back on if they froth up again.

But that is still between you and Bill. I remember quite well how upset you were. You made a decision to leave, so why not stay with that? From what you said before your advertising here was translating into sales, is business starting to interfere with morals?

Exactly. I am sure you and Bill can come to an understanding. Like all of the companies in our niche, I wish you the best with yours.

Sigh. Yet another "Frothers" TMP war. Don't know which this one is as I gave up counting them a couple of years ago.

I don't see that at all…I just see what seems to be 1-2 possible people who have issues with Bill and are bored out of their skulls on a Saturday night, and have nothing else to do in their lives, just trolling and trying to start trouble.

It's honestly getting to the point where I'd support a "troll-bit," also known as "Bridging," on this forum. I'm not sure if this version of the Forum software will support it, but the idea is that once a user is Bridged, the only people that can see their posts are Moderators and other posters who have had the 'Troll-Bit' set in their user profile. Nobody else can see their posts. So the trolls think that they're being all important, but the regular membership of the forum doesn't have to deal with them at all. Two trolls can get into a major poo-flinging match, and none of the rest of the forum has to see it!

There's also a new trick that's recently been announced that would let a somewhat-more-advanced programmer actually identify individual computers, and then use that information to block or otherwise regulate their access. No, this is not blocking individual IP addresses, that's old hat. This is blocking individual computers, regardless of how much effort they put into obfuscating or changing their IP address. Look up PanOptiClik ( panopticlick.eff.org ), it's pretty slick.

I swear that on any forum I end up running, I will have PanOptiClick running and Bridging enabled, tied to however many actual computers a person gets online with.

I don't get it, what going on as I sit and drink my glass of wine

Obfuscating your IP is not a lot of effort if you want to do it. You probably put more mental energy into deciding what to get on a pizza. Spoofing any of the other info is indeed a different thing, but no more difficult. It's like lying about your age and lying about your middle name … different things, but not ostensibly different for someone who wants to lie.

Not against any of those techniques … often people who engage in such unacceptable activities lack the interest of apply themselves to overcome those techniques.

I prefer bridging by users ignoring unwelcome content. Unhackable.

It's honestly getting to the point where I'd support a "troll-bit," also known as "Bridging," on this forum.

We used to do that years ago. Could be done again.

(One fellow kept posting for a year, not realizing he was invisible…)

If the trolls have idle accounts waiting to make trouble you could lock accounts which haven't been used for so many days. Or you could lock accounts which have other characteristics that crop up in these trolling accounts.

I guess legitimate users who get locked can easily email bill to get unlocked.

(One fellow kept posting for a year, not realizing he was invisible…)

Nice idea. It also kept him off the streets causing other trouble.

etotheipi how much would something like that cost?

Sorry, how much would what specifically cost?

@Koyote: You mean spoofing your IP address? I'm not positive on the details, but I think it's close enough to free to make no difference. It's time spent setting the stuff up, not any special hardware. I don't believe that there's any special software required, either.

But Panopticlick is completely different in technology. The only computers it MAY not be able to uniquely identify are those in college computer labs that get re-imaged every night.

@Bill: This forum software supports Bridging?!? By all means, let's bring back the Bridge and throw the s under it!

1. It's not a new trick, it's been around for ages. People have just refrained from talking about it much.

2. It works.

but…

3. Only as long as no-one knows you're doing it.

4. Once people know you're using it to identify systems, it's VERY easy to spoof. Frankly it's easier than a onion-layer network.

"I don't believe that there's any special software required, either."

You need to own the HTTP handler; that is, you'll need to be running the webserver, not just hosting a website on someone else's server.

No doubt it'll eventually become part of hosted services to, but at that point it'll be able to reliably ident my parents' computers but anyone capable of using Tor is entirely capable of bypassing this.

I don't believe that there's any special software required, either.

There are several techniques to spoofing or obfuscating your IP. They do require additional software and a service or having your own router/server. It is easy to fake an IP, doing it in a way that allows the return traffic to come back to the right location takes a little bit more.

The only computers it MAY not be able to uniquely identify are those in college computer labs that get re-imaged every night.

Any data you send can be faked.

Privacy doesn't exist. What you can hope for is that people who can't be bothered won't bother, but in the end, anything and everything connected to you on the internet can be found if someone has the time, patience and resources.
People concerned with security can raise the thresholds of time, patience and resources but there's always someone out there with more of each than you.

Likewise, any data on an internet-connected device should be considered non-private.

Whether it /should/ be that way is irrelevant to the fact that it /is/ that way.

Dear List

First I have two persona, OSchmidt as above, and Otto at home. Those aren't very cryptic. Besides, I also gave my wargaming CV a few weeks ago so….I don't think anyone can consider them "sock-puppets." I have the one for Otto at home simply because I have different browsers operating.

It comes down to this.

People are not stupid. If you are egregiously attacked on this list then everyone who has the intelligence of a clam or greater will know it's an egregious attack, and take it for what it is. If people reading the egregious attack don't like you then they will consider the attack gospel even if it says you were caught in bed with a live boy and a dead girl. If people like you they will ignore the egregious attack even if photographic evidence and signed affadavits were recorded that proved you were in bed with a live boy and a dead girl.

People who don't know you will either ignore the attack for what it was, or accept it because they're just that type of nasty little swine who likes to believe those things.

There's no way of eliminating this. It's a product of the world in which we live in.

You're going to get these things from time to time and there's not a thing you can do about it. Just remember the person doing it is a tar-baby. The more you strike back, the more tar you get on yourself until you are completely stuck.

At which time you are so covered with tar it's hard to see who was the tar-baby and who it's victim.

My own method is simple. Once I see that a person is an idiot or simply vile, I don't talk to them ever again.

It's the best way.