kozak1980 | 05 Oct 2014 8:10 p.m. PST |
I have read in a few different places that scifi ranges outsell historical ones. If this is the case why are most magazines predominately historical? I am open to the fact that this is maybe just a reflection of Australian news stands. Also does anyone know how fantasy sells? |
Weasel | 05 Oct 2014 8:30 p.m. PST |
I doubt anyone knows for sure, though if you include GW, then there's probably no question. Scifi gaming is mostly split between "the package deal" companies like GW where you buy rules and miniatures from one company and they tend to have their own publications, and then "the anarchists" where people buy from a host of companies and use a host of different rules. For the latter, it's more a web focus with sites like Dropzone horizon. |
Tom Bryant | 05 Oct 2014 8:34 p.m. PST |
A couple of guesses here: Since this is on the 15mm sci-fi board I'm guessing that we are talking 15's. I'd be surprised if that is heavily outselling 15mm historicals. That goes for 15mm Fantasy as well. Now if you're talking about the WHOLE market AND you're willing to recognize the market dominance of certain manufacturers therein then yes I can understand that quote. How many "hobby" and "game" stores have you been to that are devoted solely to one product line? How many of those product lines are "historical"? Taking it further, how many of those have dedicated "hobby" publications that are essentially house organs promoting their "hobby" over other "non-'X Hobby'"games? (Ok, I'm talking GW and Battlefront here)? How big is there representation at cons? Dollar for dollar I believe there is more solid support for historical miniatures outside of the shops and at cons where it matters. I suspect that is the reason why the mainstream miniatures magazines promote historicals more than fantasy. It also may have something to do with newsstand appeal. Let's face it how many magazines would stay in the "hobby" section of the newsstand if they had a few of the scanitly clad female minis that get posted here from time to time on their covers? It may also have something to do with the fact that the folks that are buying at newsstands are more interested in historical miniatures rather than fanatsy or sci-fi. Just some guesses here. |
James Wright | 05 Oct 2014 8:51 p.m. PST |
I suspect that it is anecdotal and really hard to quantify with any accuracy. I know more people who play FoW and SAGA than I do GW games right now, but that could just be the circles I run in too, also pretty anecdotal. Also, it could be the people who buy magazines tend towards historical gaming. I don't know any GW player who subscribes to White Dwarf. Also, it might be a generalization, but I think if you did an age breakdown of the historical gamers versus Sci fi gamers (speaking in very broad terms here) you would find older folks like my self in the historical genre in greater numbers. Being one of those older guys, I am pretty web savvy, but I also love a good old paper magazine. I am about a 90% historical, 10% fantasy/sci fi gamer. Maybe an unanswerable question, but it is kind of an interesting one. |
gavandjosh02 | 05 Oct 2014 9:25 p.m. PST |
Out sell on a $ basis or on numbers? given that Scifi figs are often more expensive than historical, I'm curious as to the comparative measure. |
McWong73 | 05 Oct 2014 10:04 p.m. PST |
At a top level, so not 15mm specific, sci fi minis outsells everything, in fact there may be evidence (never looked) that the sum total of GW and Privateer sci fi sales (so 40k and Warmachine) is greater than the rest of the hobby combined both qualatively and quantively (so $ and volume). In terms of magazine sales in Australia, that's more to do with demographics. I've spent/wasted the past ten years working in the print media and publishing sector in Oz, and using one magazine I worked on we had a large body of subscribers over the age of 40, and very few under 35 even though the target audience was age agnostic. If you look at the demographics of GW/Privateer customers the bulk would be in the under 40 age group, and this segment doesn't buy print much at all. Keep in mind too that magazine business in Australia is fundamentally different to the US due to small population and distribution costs. I'm not sure how many magazine distributors there are in the US, but in Australia we're down to one major one, and I think maybe three or four smaller ones. |
kozak1980 | 05 Oct 2014 11:08 p.m. PST |
Like most my questions some more thought or detail could have gone into it. I was talking the whole industry vs just 15mm though I only post here as it is where I come to read. That said I'm sure john from khurasan said that sci outsells historic in his ranges. I can see the magazine problem being related to Australia however are there any sci mags in other countries? Ignoring white dwarf as it only deals with GW. I'm on holidays and have grown tired of staring at iDevices |
Etranger | 06 Oct 2014 2:43 a.m. PST |
The short answer to your last question is that there are no dedicated commercial sci-fi or fantasy miniatures magazines other than WD. There have been in the past but they've all folded. The Ancible was the last that I'm aware of, albeit that was itself a web based magazine. the-ancible.com |
John Treadaway | 06 Oct 2014 3:02 a.m. PST |
My thoughts are these: There are three areas, I believe, that could have their interests measured to quantify ‘interest' in historicals versus non-historicals*. One is, indeed, magazines. Another is wargames shows. Lastly there is purchasing as a whole, right across the market. The latter can be discounted simply because of the difficulty in getting figures. Who knows how much who spends on what? No one is ever going to get the figures and mash them into some kind of analysis that makes actual sense. On top of which the several ‘big dogs' in the room – and the one particular one in the gothic F/SF arena – skew the results quite badly so it's difficult to make sense of whatever figures you might eventually get. So that's pointless. Magazines are often driven by not only the predilections of editors – and even owners (especially when they are ‘house' magazines or ones that promote a certain house product quite enthusiastically) – but they are also driven by advertisers (if they allow any in their house magazine…) and noisy letter writing campaigns. I think it's interesting to see ‘historical only' magazines that take adverts from non-historical companies (as often happens), so… Let's ask ourselves: Who's placing those ads? Companies who see a return on their advertising. So how do the advertisers see that return if the magazine is an ‘historical only' publication (on the presumption that "this is what their readership want"? And why do magazines that say that they wont have ‘fantasy' articles in their mags accept the money from those advertisers for just such a product** Said mags often sail pretty close to the wind, too (SpyFi anyone? How is James Bond and the Avengers – for example – a strictly ‘historical' subject for a game) Errrrm… In my experience of the hobby, the number of ‘historical only' gamers is probably between 5% and 10%. The number of ‘non-historical only' gamers – usually young GW players – is probably a little more than that but not much more… Around 75% plus of gamers play wargames in both historical and non-historical frameworks and are happy to do so. They just tend not to write as many stinky letters to magazine editors complaining as the ‘Orcs – never darken my towels again…I will cancel my subscription forthwith etc etc' bunch do! Witness wargames shows: a very useful indicator of the true 'state of the market'. My experience of almost forty years of shows in the UK*** is that the vast majority demonstrate that the mix of historical to non-historical interests – as shown by both manufacturers that turn up to sell (always a good barometer of interest) and games at those shows – is somewhere around 50/50: an even split in interest. Sure, at some shows the split is maybe 60/40 (both ways) and – at a very few – there's a moratorium on one or the other (just like in magazines) meaning it's 100% one way. But not many… So: the $64 USDk question: Why don't most magazines reflect that? Beats me: beyond the "complaints from the letter writers" thing I mentioned earlier, I can see no good reason beyong prejudice. Oh, an an evil campaign of miss information, obviously! I've spent the last three decades writing S&SF material in – almost exclusively – 'historical' magazines because that's where I think it should be. I've spent almost as long banging that same gong with shows like Salute for the same reason. To my eye, this is all one hobby. John "Dog in the Fight" Treadaway * My preferred nomenclature ** Yeah I know: coz their money's as good as anyones…! *** Including 6 years of Salute questionnaires with over 6000 results tabulated that asked questions exactly like this one
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Cergorach | 06 Oct 2014 3:56 a.m. PST |
Sci-fi and Fantasy miniature gaming are far smaller pies then historical miniature gaming. But because historical miniature gaming doesn't involve IP of the subject matter every company is free to produce, competition is high, price relatively low. Now compare that to Warhammer 40k or Lord of the Rings, the only reason why LotR isn't bigger then 40k anymore is because GW doesn't control the IP, the people that do don't manage it all that well. Some companies do well because of their rules/community hold dominance, Flames of War is a good example of that in the historic miniature gaming scene. But even there a lot of folks play the game with miniatures from competing companies. Things are changing in the sci-fi/fantasy scene, due to certain perceived changes in how the law applies to IP for miniatures (GW vs. Chapterhouse Studio) there's also more competition there. The problem is that competitors are at a big disadvantage, they need to design their own models (instead of copying them from historic manuals) and need to compete with high quality plastic models (that costs a lot of money up front). Things are changing due to KS though… Also keep in mind that we're talking different demographics, sci-fi/fantasy generally attracts a younger audience then historics. 50 years ago there was no 40k/WFB, there was a lot of historics. I suspect this also influences the magazines. For news and reviews I don't depend on magazines any more, even painting/conversion articles are often better found on the Internet (with a few exceptions). I'm an IT guy, the only reason I still subscribe on some higher end physical magazines is because I'm not the only one who reads them. News and reviews are generally old news by the time the magazine is delivered, there are some 'deep' (background) articles, but I'm almost of a mind that you can better buy a good book about the subject… |
20thmaine | 06 Oct 2014 4:27 a.m. PST |
If SF/F are the dominant players in wargaming these days – and judging from GW and the number of SF/F traders at Salute I guess that is the case – the reason that there isn't a dominant SF gaming magazine is because of IP and the sales model which sees a house magazine as the ideal outlet for supporting/growing one's own games. There is no gain to any company selling its own background in promoting alternative manufacturers. Historical gamers can look at an article illustrated with pictures of Wargames Foundry figures, and still play the same game with Airfix or HaT figures. Or see it in 25mm, and play it in 6mm. Until there is a true stranglehold on the hobby by a few rules manufacturers this will continue to be the case, thank goodness. |
MacrossMartin | 06 Oct 2014 5:55 a.m. PST |
Thanks, Mc Wong and John for the insights into what you've encountered in this area. John's had enough F/SF articles and columns in 'historical' magazines to fill a website or two. (Which, in fact, they do!) 20th Maine raises a good point about IP. Extrapolating on that – Suppose if someone sends in an article to a gaming mag entitled 'Converting 40K for fighting Star Trek's Dominion War' – could said magazine be looking down the barrel of a loaded IP case, or maybe two of them? Is that something that editors muse over, when deciding what to publish? And I have to confess – the handful of times that I saw an article in Miniature Wargames about 40K, I flipped through, and went straight on. And my interests are definitely in the 'non-historical' camp. So, why did I go straight to the next article? Because that article didn't offer anything that I couldn't have found in White Dwarf at that time. But! Having just pooh-poohed 40K in a non-GW publication, I will eagerly pick up a magazine that has an interesting SF article, one perhaps dealing with a concept or setting that I hadn't considered. I remember an article in (I think) Practical Wargamer ages ago – "Life's a Gas" provided the framework for armed robot balloons fighting against methane pirates in the upper atmosphere of a gas giant. It didn't come with colour shots of sumptuously painted minis, nor even a complete set of rules – just one black and white illustration, setting notes, and some guidelines. But my God, did it ever get my creative juices flowing! So, I for one would like to see so-called 'historical' magazines offer more articles (and advertising opportunities) relative to the F/SF crowd. I really think a wargames mag should be just that – not split into one camp or another. |
Winston Smith | 06 Oct 2014 6:17 a.m. PST |
Because most sci fi gamers are illiterate?
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Legion 4 | 06 Oct 2014 7:21 a.m. PST |
IMO, it's a matter of taste … Of course all I gamed for decades was historical … then went Sci-fi, now that is all I do. I think that is a good evolution. Then the other way around. Learn history … then extrapolate on it. |
Mad Mecha Guy | 06 Oct 2014 11:17 a.m. PST |
May be it's just because Sci-Fi can have more 'sexy' infantry/Vehicles/Structures & less limited by realism ie: More or less anything can go & no one really gives a [bleep] about it being totally realistic (or even vaguely) just has to sound rightish. Everything can be explained with handwavium or unobtainium. |
DS6151 | 06 Oct 2014 4:44 p.m. PST |
Because magazines contain articles. Articles about historical stuff are easy to create, and there is a plentiful supply of data from which to do so. Articles on sci-fi things are limited to either AARs, reviews of product, or "fan fiction". i.e. there are less things available to fill a magazine continually. Also, the people making the magazines like historical. Which is probably the major reason. |
John Treadaway | 07 Oct 2014 3:36 a.m. PST |
@ DS6151 Articles on sci-fi things are limited to either AARs, reviews of product, or "fan fiction" How so? I've written an awful lot of articles, game systems (as in having created the system not just reviewed it) and more over the years. Probably my oldest was a complete set of 3D Star Trek ship rules almost 30 years ago in… Practical Wargamer or Mil Mod (I forget which and I'm at work so I can't check) and have done an article – usually with rules – in Miniature Wargames most years in the last couple of decades on subjects as wide as Captain Scarlet, Cloudships of Mars, Stingray (ok – that was 25 years ago), Daleks and Cybermen… Not to mention Hammer's Slammers. Several times… ;) I know for a fact that Henry Hyde of MWAB plays historical and non-historical games. John T |
Legion 4 | 07 Oct 2014 10:52 a.m. PST |
I still have a predilection for painting my Sci-fi models in tac colors and camo used in real war …
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freecloud | 11 Oct 2014 7:59 a.m. PST |
I play both, but I only got into Sci Fi when the kids got into 40K. IMO non-GW Sci Fi has only really had a good selection of gear in the last decade or so. I suspect historical sells more in volume terms (by and large armies are far bigger), Sci Fi more in $ terms (just look at the prices….). I also think if you took GW and Battlezone out the picture the rest of Sci Fi is probably a lot smaller than Historical, which is probably why the magazines focus on historical I also think the point that Sci Fi is mainly AAR & Reviews has an element of truth to it, its noticeable on TMP boards as well. Like Legion 4 I like introducing history into Sci Fi, my Dystopian Wars fleet is painted as the pre-Dreadnoughts of that country appeared c 1895 ;) |
Dave Crowell | 16 Oct 2014 7:15 a.m. PST |
Despite having a strong local historicals focused club the nearest FLGS to me is overwhelmingly focused on Sci-Fi and Fantasy. I asked the owner about that and he said knowing what to stock for Fantasy and Sci-Fi gaming is easy. GW, Battletech, Reaper, D&D. Historicals players are much more narrowly focused within a broader pool. There are so many historical games, periods, scales, units etc, and gamers want only the exact one that they need. With fantasy/Sci-Fi he could pretty much count on being able to sell the core units for the major armies of what ever mainstream games were popular. However it may well be a different picture if you factor in game show sales and web buying. |
Cergorach | 17 Oct 2014 7:30 a.m. PST |
Let's not forget that a lot of historical gamers never see the inside of that 'gaming store' because they buy their models in 1/72 (or 1/48 or 1/35) from a wide range of model companies like Revell, Tamiya, Dragon, etc. Available from model stores and even toy stores… |