aapch45 | 03 Oct 2014 8:44 a.m. PST |
According to some of the earlier DBX army lists, they did.. but I'm failing to find any evidence of conflict between any early Ageans and the New Kingdom Egyptians. Maybe some of you more chariot-era inclined folks will have an answer? Let me know please, I'm dying to have an epic battle between my NKEs and my newly bought mycenaeans Thanks Austin |
Editor in Chief Bill | 03 Oct 2014 8:51 a.m. PST |
Don't let history get in the way of your fun! |
The Last Conformist | 03 Oct 2014 8:52 a.m. PST |
Some of the "Sea Peoples" have been identified as Greek – the Denyen could be Danaoi and the Ekwesh possibly Achaeans. That wouldn't be the flimsiest grounds that Phil's used to list peoples as historical enemies. That it's no longer so in the DBMM lists however rather suggests it was a typo/error. Needless to say, other identifications for the Denyen and Ekwesh has been suggested; and all are equally unproven. |
durnford1879 | 03 Oct 2014 8:57 a.m. PST |
I'm not sure but didn't the Hittites have Mycean mercenaries |
Swampster | 03 Oct 2014 9:06 a.m. PST |
Which DBx lists? DBA 2 doesn't give them as enemies. Menelaus stopped off there on the way home, so that could count but better as part of the Sea Peoples. |
John the OFM | 03 Oct 2014 9:30 a.m. PST |
This dilemma is due to the fact that some people confuse army lists with history texts. Menelaus stopped off there on the way home… Probably not as a tourist. "Fleet blown off course", my great aunt Nellie. |
Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 03 Oct 2014 9:48 a.m. PST |
The important thing to realize is that they COULD have met and fought… them amazing thing to me is how much people are willing to limit themselves in one regard but go to town in another. If someone is going to knot their panties all in a bunch over exactly who fought against whom, when and where, but then use an entirely ahistorical deployment and tactics, I get confused about where their sensibilities are. IF the two forces were contemporary to one another, and their is no reason why they could NOT have met and fought, then by all means have a go at it. Myceneans vs. New Kingdom Egyprians, or Early Libyans, makes perfect sense. No reason it could not have happened, and who knows maybe it actually did and we just haven't found the record of it. But, say, any of those three vs. Hsia and Shang Chinese is more of a stretch, the logistics for such a war just weren't in place at the time. Since they are your toys, and you are the one staging the game, any opponent should be delighted that you made all the preparations yourself and are supplying both sides. Even if there isn't an Authoritative Book proving that it happened. |
Bellbottom | 03 Oct 2014 9:56 a.m. PST |
I'm sure I read somewhere that later NKE employed some Mycenean type greeks as mercenaries after they had been displaced from their homeland? Bear in mind too that Cyprus was controlled by Egypt at this time. |
Bellbottom | 03 Oct 2014 10:03 a.m. PST |
Checks with Wiki reveal earliest Greek colonies in Egypt at Daphnae (as mercenaries, mostly Carians and Ionians) and Naucratis on the delta, both in the 7th century BC |
zippyfusenet | 03 Oct 2014 10:40 a.m. PST |
After reading the Hittite records from western Asia Minor, I think it's beyond doubt that Mycenaeans and other Aegean peoples who are know from the Illiad participated in the Sea People invasions of Egypt and the Levant. |
zippyfusenet | 03 Oct 2014 12:00 p.m. PST |
The Ahhiyawans/Achaeans are documented to have fought at Kadesh as Hittite vassal troops, possibly at other battles as well. But as part of a Hittite host. |
Oh Bugger | 03 Oct 2014 12:15 p.m. PST |
What he said and what about Helen? |
Winston Smith | 03 Oct 2014 3:44 p.m. PST |
Back in my WRG tournament salad days I would fight against Huns with my Carthaginians and not bat an eyelid. I would lose, but not bat an eye. NKE vs Mycenaean? Piece of cake. Who are the Gods smiting today? |
Sobieski | 03 Oct 2014 6:34 p.m. PST |
There are a few lines in the Odyssey referring to a Minoan pirate raid on the Nile delta. You have highly presentable authority for scraps between them (though it must be sadly admitted that it must have been pretty small scale). |
zippyfusenet | 04 Oct 2014 5:12 a.m. PST |
Achaean army vs. Hittite army would be more likely, one on one. But if Agamemnon Sacker-of-Cities could show up at Troy with 1000 black ships, why couldn't he sail to the Nile Delta? |
TKindred | 04 Oct 2014 7:46 a.m. PST |
Certainly, you can use Ethiopians, as they, under Memnon, were allies of Priam. It was Memnon who is credited with killing Antilochos, son of Nestor. [In the Odyssey (III.111-2) Nestor recalls the death of his son Antilochos who died by the spear of "the glorious son of shining Dawn," (Od. IV.185-202) which is the epithet reserved for Memnon. Later in the Odyssey the Ethiopian warrior is mentioned by name as "great Memnon." (Od. XI. 522) This is the one instance where I agree with Velikovsky's theory that the timeline is off by some 400-500 years, and that the war was fought in the late 8th to early 7th century. His description of Priam's allies and his (and other archeologists) dating of the war may be read here: varchive.org/dag/trowar.htm He sums up his position with this: A correct historical placement of the Trojan War may contain a clue to its real cause: we can surmise that the Helladic city-states, alarmed by rumors of hordes of Cimmerians, preceded by dispossessed Phrygians, pushing towards the Hellespont, united under the leadership of Agamemnon and moved across the Aegean sea to preclude the invasion of their land, should the migrating Cimmerians or displaced Phrygians attempt to cross the straits into mainland Greece. Troy was located in the vicinity of the Hellespont, crossed by armies in ancient times, by Alexander, by Darius I, and by other conquerors before them.While the Greek expedition may have had some limited success, its forces were wrecked and dispersed in the natural upheavals that accompanied the fall of Troy. |