"hoplite banners?" Topic

Did Hoplites use anything in the way of flags, banners, or standards with their commands? My google-fu has only come uo with shield aprons, and those do not appear to be related to command activities.

Thank you.

No banners during the period that I've heard of, but there was one occasion where a ribbon (IIRC a general's belt) was tied to a spear and waved around.

That would explain why I can't find anything. Thank you.

They did have musicians. Will that satisfy the urge for a command element?

"They did have musicians. Will that satisfy the urge for a command element?"

And sacrificial goats.

Nobody really knows PR. The first known Hellenic banners are Makedonian but if you want your hoplites to have some by all means do it! Egyptians certainly used them so there is contemporary evidence.

Personally I go with none but then I don't "do" sword waving commanders either.

Musicians may be my next bet. I *do* have a sword waving commander, as I need some way to identify the General stand. Sacrificial goats may be a part of the encampment. I have always wanted to do up some goats as part of an army.

Anyways, off to the bead store to see if I can find a fair proxy for a 28mm horn…

I really appreciate everyone's input. Thank you all!

Shield aprons, as you say, were not related to command activities but probably as protection against missiles for troops who were liable to be in slightly more exposed situations.

Don't know happened, this first attempt (message correct below) ended up garbage (don't say what you're thinking, be kind ), sorry.

Nobody really knows PR.

Porkmann's correct, do your own thing, unless you play with pedants,and trolls (and why would anyone?).

"Wargamer's license" it was called in the ancient, innocent years of wargaming, if there was such a time.

Cheers,

The bead store failed me. Now they must die! But seriously, a sword-waving general amongst the spears will have to do as my command lol!

Wargamer's license? I never knew there was a name for it. I always just said they were my toys and I was going to play with them my way!

I forget which battle, offhand, but there was mention of the general tying a bundle of straw to his spear so others would see where he is.

Musicians would march in front of the army before combat, and then retire through the gaps, or hang around the general… even a packed in phalanx allowed supernumeries to move in and out.

Hoplite generalship was highly dangerous. later on as generals sat back behind the lines. signal flags and standards became more important.

We know many things about hoplite warfare. For example we know that hoplite armies used a "watchword", a two part greeting like in armies today.. one person says "uncle" the other must know the answer "sam" or risks being impaled.. this lessened blue on blue casualties. Also the watchword was passed down the rank of the phalanx (Cunaxa).
Command was also issued from the right to the left via these audible commands. This is one reason why the left wing got moving slower, since movement on the right would not be visible, but the auditory command could move very fast. This also explains why a hoplite phalanx is difficult to command if it has broken into clumps (such as at the Nemea where the allies were unable to pass word to their other groups once the Spartans started rolling up their flank).

You dont have to be a pedant to ask for and receive the actual known facts. That does not stop you from going off on your own, I do that too, but I prefer to know where I am deviating from known into the fanciful.

Old Glory miniatures includes standard bearers in their command pack, a small square cloth on a pole. I painted them up and used them in each unit and generals stands.

My extremely amateur research had shown the small square of clorh on a pole was a little later, more Alexander than This Is Sparta (or Ionia, in my particular case.) So, I went for a sword-waving general and three soldiers with spears for my command element.

I just want to again express my appreciation to everyone who has taken the time to help me out on this topic and the related TMP link topic. The TMP HiveMind is truly staggering not only in the wealth of information available but also in the willingness to share it.

I have the entire DBA army assembled and ready to paint, let's see 1) if I can stick it through getting the whole thing painted, and 2) how quickly I can knock it out.

From a practical gaming point of view it's helpful for your General to be easily identifiable. So I lean towards 'something', even if historically dodgy, though I do try to keep it low key if that seem appropriate.

A couple of Campanian cavalry stands that can be used for Generals.

A couple of Hoplite Generals.

IIRC the only known "banner" is that of the Castor & Pollux used in Sparta for processional purposes. BTW sacrificial goats would be carried by Spartans up until before charging; they would stop their march, sacrifice the goat and then charge. A very uninspiring thing to watch for their enemies I guess.

Watchword was passed from right to left then returned to check it had got to the last men. Use without care could result in disaster, as the Athenians learnt from Syracusans IIRC.

Musicians would do as JJartist said, while the hoplites went singing the pean. Too as JJartist said there was place into the phalanx for others than hoplites, be them archers/slingers/javelinmen, and also they had their ekdromoi (lightly equipped, unarmoured hoplites) who played a role similar to French voltigeurs but just for an antiskirmisher role.