"Victrix hastati done" Topic

First unit of 20 hastati

link

Nicely done!!!!!! Mike Adams

Look good! But I don't think there is any historical justification for blue plumes!

Nicely done

Actually, except for white and red there is not much historical stuff about any plumes!

What birds do blue feathers come from that the romans had access to?

"What birds do blue feathers come from that the romans had access to?"

I think you're ignoring the fact they could have dyed them quite easily….

And what would the justification be for black shields? Or orange ones? Or pink tunics?

Nobody knows what colors they used so to assert in such a way on the color of a feather is not something the wise would do.

White, black or purple according to the info we have, anything else is just fantasising. If you are going to do historicals then use the best info possible.

So you are wise and I am not? Please tell me why you believe the romans had pink tunics or orange shields?

Blue feathers seem historically unlikely. For one thing pure blue is not a common natural colour. More likely is an indigo dye but this was extremely expensive in the ancient world and is why royalty is associated with it. To assert that no one knows for certain so we're free to make things up is a pretty flimsy historical argument.

They look great – forget the "historical" nit pickers. As long as the colours are not dayglo or purple I can buy it!

I would venture to guess that Gunfreaks camera has made the blue more blue than it really is.
I took photos of my Prussian Landwehr with my camera and they came out almost light blue rather than the dark blue I painted.
He may have used a bluish grey to highlight the black and it came out too blue in the photo?

Oh Yeah Porkmann – just paint anything the way you want it – but don't claim its historical.

I never clame mine to be 100% accuret. My units have a "theme" for this legion its light blue feathers and scabbard. Its simply to make it easier to see which unit is which legion. My finished legion has dark blue feathers

Well don't call them romans then.

Hey Gunfreak, don't let the naysayers bring you down. Your minis look good, and even if they are not 100% "historically accurate" they make you happy. Anyone who is going to walk away from a game because they think the plumes are the wrong color aren't worth gaming with anyways.

I like them. Nice bronze finish in particular!

I like the look of your Romans. Keep up the good work.

Don't worry about it too much Gunfreak, anything historical I've ever posted on TMP gets the treatment. Seems like I always get something wrong… button color (always matches facing color, except for that one regiment in '78 in the Carolinas etc. ), sleeve stripes, you name it.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
― Theodore Roosevelt

I think your ROMANS look really good. Ignore the naysayers.

It's your figures and your hobby so ignore(if you already haven't) the button counters and be happy in getting another block of figures ready for action. They look nice btw.

Christopher

Mirabile visu! (Lat. "Wonderful to behold!")

Figures looking good and being historically accurate are not equivalents. If anyone posts their figures on TMP then they must be willing to accept the range of comments that will naturally come. So those of you who are saying "ignore the naysayers" or such are really betraying the whole idea of a community board. How do we grow or gain insight except through a range of responses? If you don't want honest feedback then don't post the pictures.

Don't see why they can't be blue. If the masses had access to cheap blue dye, then why not the army? I always enjoy the discussions on historical accuracy when we don't actually know what they looked like. Either way, they look good to me.

link
Colors of Roman Clothing – Blue
The common color of blue was produced by using a cheap dye used for Roman clothing. The cheapers colors of yellow were produced from Woad. Woad was a European herb (Isatis tinctoria) of the mustard family grown for the blue dyestuff yielded by its leaves – cultivated as a source of blue dye. The leaves were dried, crushed and composted with manure. The dye was produced through fermentation over several weeks. Used to produce Roman clothing cloth dyed in various colors and shades of blue.

I have to agree with Marcus Brutus, all comments should be welcome… so long as they are constuctive!

Hi, just some weeks ago I had the pleasure to listen to an academic presentation on a pigment shop in Pompeii and Herculaneum (Dr Hilary Becker, The University of Mississippi.

While organic dyes were obviously long gone they found a variety of mineral based dyes. The bottom line is, that a number of colours (yellows,greens,blues,reds) could be achieved easily, depending on the wealth of the individual. While the presentation focused on pigments used for wall paintings, the presenter did think that many of the pigments could have also been used in dying cloth and other materials.

While blue feathers for a whole legion might be unlikely, it is not impossible. I could see that a unit would feature the white, red and black we find in the sources and the commander or a better off individual would sport a blue feather. However, it might be better to use a darker, greyish blue. That said your unit could just represent the small number of soldiers with blue feathers.

If you like them as they are, more power to you. I don't think anybody should be criticised based on a small detail, that could have been possible.

If you feel like changing them I would just paint some red, some white, some black and the commander and two or three other guyes get blue feathers.

When my 15mm Romans arrive I sure will add a blue feather here and there.

After reading this again I realise I have come across as a bit of a jerk. I apologise – especially to Gunfreak and Porkmann.

Hey Chubby, your initial response was fair but perhaps the last one was bit over the top. Gunfreak's Romans are still Romans even if they have blue feathers. I don't agree with the black shields and there is no evidence of Punic legions using shield blazons or such but they still look Roman to my eyes.

Apolagy accepted chubby :)

With reference to your blog any spare velites left over can easily be converted into extra allied infantry. There are plentiful spare heads in each box set and 12 spare scuta which can also be converted (with scalpel and needle file) to lighter rimless scuta of varied shapes.

I did in fact make an unarmord hastati from a veilites. Cut of one legg add one with greves. Glue on a sword arm, add an empty scabard, and wola unarmord hastati

I'd say painting shields black should be relatively easy, but a dark true black might be hard to achieve.

The blazons are a possibility, but then I guess it comes down to uniformity. If we assuem they ahd to quip themselves more variety in colours, shield desigsn etc. would be more likely.

They look great.

There is a ton we don't know about an aweful lot when it comes to the early republic (or even the late republic.).

A well painted army is better than a grey plastic army or no army. I would be happy to play against someone with an army that looked like that.

In "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars", page 158. Duncan Head notes that Polybius describes the feathers on Roman helmets as either black or crimson.

Judging by the comments on this subject williamb Polybius' comments are a mere technicality. You'll also note that Head mentions that there is no evidence of shield blazons either in this period but judging by the comments above if one feels the urge, go for it.