"Time to act on orders in high level games" Topic

I've posted before about the '1956 British Army rules' The major thing in these is the Move and Combat rules are very minimal. What they concentrate on is the thing that is most important for an army – Planning.

I've run a game inspired by them, but my own rules as a Kriegspiel, but I'd love to get a 2 player tabletop game out of it.

It basically goes like this. (all times are indicative only for the examples, not set in stone – Values not important while trying to get this to work)

The basic unit is a Battalion.

So for instance – ATTACK ORDERS

Ordering a Battalion to assault a position requires 2 hours planning

Each further Battalion in the attack requires a further 2 hours planning, plus 2 hours per extra HQ involved.

So if a division has brigades numbered 1, 2 3 etc, and the battalions are Bde number/Bn (so 1 bde has 1/1, 1/2 1/3)

Attack with 1/1 Bn
= 2 Hours

1/1 and 1/2
=4 hours planning (ie order given at 0600, attack starts at 1000)

1/1, 1/2 plus 2/1, and 2/2
4 units
plus division (as the liaison is done by them with 2 bde
Plus 2 bde Hq

a total of 12 hours (4 units+2 extra HQ @ 2hrs each)

If 2 Bns of Corp artillery also committed on the above that add 4 hours (2 units) plus 2 hours (Corps HQ)

(Oh, given the timings in the 1956 rules, I'm being generous!)

Is this a game where you just have to trust your opponent to get it right, or is there some sort of mechanism I can use to track.

In case your wondering 1 x 3bn attack after 6 hours is better than 3 x 1 bn attacks after 2.
The BASIC maths is
Attack= 4 + number of attacking bns – number of defending bns.
Defence is 10-Attack
- there are more mods, dug in, combined arms etc – but that's the basic.

You need to score less than your value on a d10. Each point below causes 1 step reduction. 4 steps per bn- 2 is half strength- can only fight if combined with another half strength of same type, 3 losses is half strength, may not attack

Thus 3 x 1 bn, the defender gets to fight each at less than 6 needed, where as 1 x 3 the defender needs under 4, with hits spread evenly.

I applaud your effort here, LH. May I suggest the following book that discusses such problems encountered with WWI battalion examples who's studies are just as applicable today as was before WWI: "Infantry in Battle" ISBN: 0-940328-3, Marine Corps Association, Aug 2000.

Samples examples discussed: Rules, Obscurity, Simplicity, Scheme of maneuver and Main Effort, Terrain, Time and Space, Mobility, Surprise, Decisions, The Plan, etc.

v/r
Tom

The number of units (Bns) In a formation (Bde) is fairly irrelevant from a planning timeline as all will normally plan concurrently.

The rule of thumb used is the 1/3 – 2/3. The Bde takes a third of the available time the remainder is used by the Bns. They in turn use a third of that time to plan and deliver orders passing on 2/3 to their sub units (Coys).

Prelim moves assembling forces can take time and reduce the planning/orders timeline.

Deliberate v Hasty operations take or are normally given longer lead times.

Remember you are always trying to get your punch in first, and make the enemy dance to your tune by getting inside his decision making process (OODA loop or Boyd cycle).

The planning timings in the 1956 rules were based on operational experience in WW2 and Korea, modern armies do things a bit faster of course.

wrt the OP, I wouldn't overthink it, the original rules were designed for two 'sides', even if they were all trained military officers. So you write down the times when stuff happens or is planned to happen. When I've run them, both sides very rapidly realise the value of attacking at dawn or dusk.

If you don't want to have written orders and possibly umpires, then you need some other mechanism. I'd suggest fairly long turns (4 hours, maybe even 8 or 12 like some of Jim Wallmans operational games) and factor the planning and execution times into unit posture or maybe only allow a prepared attack after a turn (or two or three) delay, units could build up preparation chits or something.

The SPI WW3 series gave units operation points to expend each activation phase which could be used to move, recover or conduct different types of attack. Coordinated attacks with other formations and higher level support used a ton of operation points. So why not go for e.g. 12 hour turns, and give each unit 12 operation points to 'spend', each corresponding to one hour, so you could have a battalion move and conduct a series of hasty attacks in one turn, or spend all 12 hours coordinating a division level attack with Corps/Army assets.

Don't forget the execution time for attacks, even only battalion sized assaults took (potentially) a few hours to execute.

Martin – I was hoping you or John {Salt} would see this!

I should have made clear this is for WW2 era. Einhheit – the '56 rules do give different planning times for size of attack. Infantry Examples are

Bn attack, with Armoured Sqd and Arty Rgt – 4 hours

2 Bn Counter-attack, with Armoured Sqd and Arty Rgt each – 7 hours

2 Bn Counter-attack, with Armoured Sqd and 2 Arty Rgt each – 10 hours

Division Attack – 2 Bdes, Armour Regt, Div arty – 24 hours

I thought about putting 'planning markers on units, but that will show the other side exactly where the attack is coming from. I'm looking to see if there is a way not to have written records, but its looking inevitable.

And yes, I have thought of Battle Times – its going to be something like 2 hours per unit in contact (ie not arty etc) on the smaller side, plus move to contact times.

'1956 British Army rules' The major thing in these is the Move and Combat rules are very minimal. What they concentrate on is the thing that is most important for an army – Planning.

Is this a board game? With those kinds of planning time involved, I'm not sure how you can do something with miniatures.

Usually, the assumption is that when the miniatures game starts the planning has been done.

Just trying to get a sense of how you see this playing out [excuse the pun].

Martin and John explain it best in their Introduction, the text on this page (John's site, I believe) is close-

link

Units are at Battalion level, but can break down. Movement is regulated on a 2km grid. They note it is frustrating for what it leaves out – certain values are known by the sort of person who would be involved, so aren't mentioned – logistics being a biggie. Terrain doesn't give "+1" but slows down the speed of battle, so a x hour battle in {terrain type} takes x+y hours.

The combat tables are for kind of battle – Planned Infantry Battle, Planned Armour Heavy, etc- and list attacking combos such as
Bn &Tp (ie Infantry Bn, Armoured Troop) up to 3 bns & 3 Sqdn & 3 Arty regts.

These are cross referenced with possible defensive combos to give a probability of attack success. Being wargamers I envision players using combos not in the tables – "I use 3 Bns,a single sqdn, and no artillery" – which aren't covered.

Yes, miniature games are usually the bit from H-Hour onward, down at company level. But many of us hanker after the operational scenario. What is apparent in these rules is that it is the planning that is important – there is a finite amount of time between Division saying "Take that hill", and the Brigade actually setting off, rather than 'Successful order roll on next turn'- if you want to attack at 0400, then you need to issue that order hours beforehand, and once contact is made the result is not known for hours

There is a whole section for battlefield nukes- once the hit location for the warhead is determined it is a cold calculation on a table: Size- then distances for Unit destroyed/50% casualties/25%/10%, for each of- in open, dug in, on armored/Armoured/Heavy concrete structures

Last Hussar:
Thanks for the description and links. The times for planning are fascinating, particularly in comparing such times with say Napoleonic and ACW planning to orders to execution.

It does seem that to actually play a game from planning to execution with miniatures, you would almost need to have games last days in scale time. I haven't found out how the game was supposed to be represented visually, but I probably haven't read far enough.

The Intro says that Martin got through 4 days in an hour in his "standard subdivision scenario he uses to test most operational rules – the Canadian attack on Agira in Sicily"

The original was used by the Army, so was set up as a usual Kriegspiel type training game – team of umpires with couriers to run messages: Obviously easy to do when you can order a bunch of OR's to do all the running around/book-keeping, and playing the game counts as training for your job, and you can requisition all the offices and billiard rooms you like!

I'm looking at trying to bring the K/S experience/idea to a table top, to operational games are playable in an evening between two people. I have Megablitz, but it seems to have holes in it. Also I want to have a mechanism light set- moving away from the "+1 for this" beloved by most sets, and have a game that emphasises the things that are important Brigade level upwards.

What did John do to upset Bill?

The Intro says that Martin got through 4 days in an hour in his "standard subdivision scenario he uses to test most operational rules – the Canadian attack on Agira in Sicily"

LH:
Yes, but it wasn't clear whether this was a miniatures game or not. Thanks for the explanation. It does seem to be a challenge to do the game with just two people.

Miniatures are just 3D counters, but yes, I used toys. Battalion (and some company/squadron) stands.

The actual rules are designed to be used with counters, as the Army don't like toys in their operational games. They were originally designed to wargame out the conduct of Corps level armoured operations in Germany in a nuclear environment.

To run them as they stand, I just did it RPG style, a team of players in a command structure vs me running the opposition. Agira was a divisional level attack conducted over the course of a week by the (4th?) Canadian Infantry Division in Sicily against 29th (?) Panzergrenadier Division.

It is my standard test scenario for Operational WW2 rules as it has everything but is a manageable size, just like I use Bussaco to test Napoleonic sets.

Interesting information, I would be fascinated to know of any equivalent contempory(ish) studies by other nations on the estimated times to get THEIR various unit into action, might be enlightening.

I ran a few 'Free Rule' games 20+ years ago. These were modern scenarios, and we used radios. We soon learnt the teams needed just 2, and the umpire team 5+ – Each umpire side had 1 on the radio, 1 to enact the message, then we had an 'Overall' umpire meshing the 2 sides together. Combat or anything else where there was uncertainty was a simple d6 + discussion. A 6 was very good for who was giving the order, a 1 very bad. This was then interpretted by umpires talking: If the situation was hopeless – say you'd ordered a battalion to assault a dug in brigade, a 6 didn't get you a surprise victory – it might mean they had realised in time before they lost too many troops, and pulled back.

We RP a bit as well – in one game Blue managed to get their Artillery Battalion over-run, which duly ran away. Blue tried to raise them on the radio, and spoke to a Staff Sergeant who thought he was probably the senior person left. When ordered to take a role of A/T to try and give the fleeing troops some cover, gave a 2 word answer- the second of which was 'off'.

Like Martin says – toys are just counters that look pretty, so it doesn't really matter. In fact one of the things about high level games is that you can 'realistically' use counters. Mine are sticky back plastic covered so they can be written on – one line per hit.

I'm trying to take the 'challenge to run for 2' out. I've been trying for years to find a operational game- the ones I have seem to be more 'aide memoires' for the writer in his game. This is fine if you have an umpire, but I want the challenge Divisional commanders have in a 2 player- ideally I'd like to be able to do a 'Market-Garden'. What the rules do is not have you worry about the tactics- Units A, B and C assault position 'X', held by units M and N. You want the attack to start at 0400 – you do a quick bit of maths, and confirm you have time to plan. At 0500 the attack reaches its target. The rules say this size battle will take 4 hours. You ignore this until the 0900 turn. Lots of time will be skipped – you just read through hours, until one of you says "Stop – This happens",

2100? 2200? 23?, Midnight, 0100? 2? 3? 4?

[player 2] Stop- these units start moving

[player 1 checks] – Ok I can't do anything about those until 0700 [player 2 moves the unit to their 0700 position] Ok, that lets me activate these units which have 'COUNTER' orders. They engage you at 0800 – the battle will take [checks] 4 hours-so 1200. [The units are now revealed from their 'blind' or 'hidden' status. Both players make notes giving new orders now they are alerted to enemy presence- calculating the time these will take effect] I've got nothing before 12.

[p2] I have – at 11 these start to assault Hill 205- with transit time that will last to 1500. Lets resolve the 1200 battle. [reading modifiers for attacker] I am 1up… 2up… 3 up…

[p1] I'm 2 up, down 1, so back to 1… no that's it; 1.

[p2] Ok Up 3, down your 1 is 2up. 4 plus 2 is 6, so you are on 10-6 is 4 {each roll d10} 4 so Attack difference of 2. I'm mostly armour, so 1st hit on your tanks, second on your infantry, the other infantry is unharmed

I rolled 3, so I get 1 hit on you – I'm mostly infantry so your infantry gets hit. You won by one, so I fall back 2km

[p2] My orders are 'Take Position' so I occupy your position and don't follow up.

…

"I would be fascinated to know of any equivalent contempory(ish) studies by other nations on the estimated times to get THEIR various unit into action, might be enlightening."

The only one I can easily recall is that a German infantry battalion would expect to conduct a hasty attack from the line of march 45 minutes from first contact (using integral heavy weapons only).

Actually thats useful – I was wondering about hasty attack. I assume that limits co-operation with other battalions?

Well, yes, and supporting fires. It takes time to prepare a proper fire plan.

I have a set of the 1956 rules though have never played them (like 99% of the wargames rules I have ever bought, really). They are very interesting though: almost like a resource pack for a writer of modern war games rules.

For those who say that most wargames start from the moment of H-Hour, and that this makes these planning times unimportant, I would respectfully disagree, depending on the size of your game. If you are playing a divisional-level battle, you will (or rather, you should) be keeping some fairly large units in reserve, whether to counter enemy moves, or to exploit breakthroughs or whatever. Really, these should not simply move at a moment's notice – fair enough, if your plan of attack calls for 2nd Brigade to move at H-Hour +4, or to move on such-and-such an objective when they see a green flare or something, then that's a slightly different issue…. but the player really shouldn't be able to say: ‘oooh – look – 1st Brigade has taken Hill 123, I think I'll order 2nd Brigade to attack Hill 456 now' and expect it to happen immediately. Such things still take a degree of planning, even in the middle of an action.
Of course, the player should be able to short-circuit all this to an extent and to make such an attack ‘hasty', but this should bring pretty severe penalties, including the chance of sub-units not taking part (ie. did not get the order to move), the wrong objective being attacked or friendly-fire.

I also think there should be a big difference in 'reaction times' between un-committed, fresh, well-ordered units which are specifically held back in reserve (ie. pretty tightly controlled by the CO) and those which have just arrived knackered on the field, or are away demonstrating on a flank or under any sort of enemy fire. To continue the previous example, the time for 1st Brigade to respond to an order to now go on and attack Hill 321 (immediately after their successful attack on Hill 123) should take even longer still.

As you might have guessed by now, the ability to switch plans in the middle of an action, and order units about by telepathy and with split-second timing is one my pet-hates in wargaming.

Again, the Falmouth Mega-games handle this reasonably well, the campaign moves tend to generate large scale set-piece battles, certainly for the opening games. Then the table rules (massively modified spearhead derivative) contain very restrictive AOO rules limiting brigade/regt to very specific zones on the table, to the extent that units cannot easily fire or move into other zones without time consumming order changes. Other formations might be off table in support ready to move into areas already containing friendly formations, but crossing on table from one zone to another is difficult for most and impossible for some armies.
Where it gets interesting is when there are armies capable of some changes fighting one which isn't, such as the game this year (Gazala 42) which saw large, powerful but predictable Commonwealth formations up against the mixed bag of Italians and DAK, The Germans had the ability to attempt to change AOO's providing Rommel was on the specific table (most games were 2 or 3 divisions a side covering about 20km of front), it really brought out the feel of the Germans zipping about the desert, bailing out the Italians, gaining local success but constantly on the back foot. One game I played in was particularly memorable, with 21st pzr and the Trieste div up against 7th armd div and a South African division suported by various tank bdes.
The SA div attacked the Italians who, while doing ok, were slowly but surely geting ground down, meanwhile, 21st pzr used one of its mixed inf/armoured Kgs under the watchful eye of Rommel to roundly duff up one of 7th armd divs brigades, it had a supporting mixed kg in reserve and a supporting infantry regt on table linking to the Italians. To cut a long story short the British divisional morale became shot, forcing all their bdges onto the defensive, this in turn allowed Rommel to re-draw some of his boundaries, and despatch his armour to the other end of the table, (about 16 feet/20km) to the rescue of the Italians where the British were still going about their battle plan. This whole change process probably took 2 hours, maybe a bit quick, plus the march itself about 3 hours, maybe a bit slow but it really brought out the flavour of the campaign.

I remember being impressed by General Sir John Hackett playing 'Napoleon' in 'Game of War' on TV when he gave a warning movement order to the Imperial Guard three hours before he committed them.

Hackett won:)

That's an interesting point- I was going to go ?1 hour? between order given and the units starting to move: Allow a 'Warning of Movement" so that the unit moves when the order is given. However for this the unit on Warning wouldn't have dig in bonus (for those who are not Martin – you don't give dig in orders- troops gain levels of defence based on how long stationary, because I'm sure any ex-grunt/pong here will attest, when you stop moving you start digging)

The mention of General Sir John Hackett got me looking around, and although it's not really on topic as such, I found this, which I suspect others will also find interesting:

The Queen's Commission: A Junior Officer's Guide
PDF link