"Mounted knight poses?" Topic

Knights/gendarmes on horseback with lances -- do you want them with lances leveled or lances raised (straight up)?

Raised. Lowered lances can cause issues with ranking up, or interfering when you base another stand/unit.

Damon.

I agree. Prefer them raised.

Upright or at a 45 degree angle.

45 degree angle…a good compromise

Lowered if moving at the gallop/charge, otherwise, upright.

I seem to bend/break them either way.

Straight up, ready for action

My current preference is for the first rank to have their lances lowered (or at most 45 degree angle) and for the subsequent ranks to have their lances held upright.

I prefer raised. Lowered looks good but causes too much practical problems when gaming.

Raised, lowered causes issues in play and more importantly in transportation.

45 degree angle would suit me.

Upright is my preference

May a few lowered lances included in the command pack? The rest upright? That way there are some for the front rank, but you don't have to worry about them when filling in the ranks.

45 degrees, properly couched …

Certainly not in the silly Essex pose.

Phil

Lances and pikes both always raised. way to many problems on the table and during transport to be worth having them lowered.

owen

Upright pikes and lances.

In addition, it's best if the (cast on) weapon isn't too close to the body so that they can be replaced with wire spears. A unit with bent pikes & lances ruins a good paint job.

Upright, simple.

45*

Why on earth would a unit keep their lances at 45° ?

Not usefull for movement nor attacking. I dare you to seek out contemporary pictures with knights holding their lances at that angle – well, except a few second rankers about to change from upright to leveled.

If the horse is moving fast, leveled.
If its walking/trotting/standing, upright.

Overall I prefer them upright, as only so many units are about to make contact, and I prefer my horses in a more relaxed pose, not charging in/galloping. But as I am only into 28mm, my opinion will not make you any money :-/

Why is the unit keeping their lances in any of the positions remotely relevant?

In fact the majority of illustrations in the maciejowski bible show lances in the intermediate position (not actually 45 degrees, more like 60, probably) … very few either upright or levelled …

More specifically Renaissance gendarmes, perhaps, the Pavia Tapestry has numerous figures in the 45 degree pose ..

Phil

45 degrees for me .

Lowered lances creates problems in transportation of figures and ranking up etc. More than likely they will end up with broken lances after a couple of innings .

Those razor sharp wire pikes are another matter :)

Ok so now it's between upright or 45 degrees.

By the way, this will be a straight lance without vamplate or handguard.

practicality would suggest upright – or something close to that anyway – especially if base depths are significant. My medieval Scots can be (visually) in contact with an opponent when they are still nearly half a move distant.

> Renaissance gendarmes, perhaps, the Pavia Tapestry has numerous figures in the 45 degree pose ..

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Apart from those depicted in the second rank of an engagement, 45° are pretty rare, though I would love to see your examples (and there are plenty of tapestries or depictions around for Pavia, not to count other battles starting at Fornovo).

Units depicted as advancing into contact often have their lances shown slightly lowered (to perhaps 60°, as in some units on the Fornovo print), but given the overall depiction of Renaissance battles from perhaps 1490 to 1540 these are a minority. The usual depiction of Gensdarmes not in direct contact is upright.

Ultimately you have to build what you like and can use, not a duplication of historical depictions. For Gensdarmes in contact eg. 45° is preferable to leveled lances so that you can still move two units in contact on the table.

The Ashmolean Pavia picture has advancing Imperial knights with lances between 60 and 70 degrees. The French are slightly more upright.

Upright is more practical. If one is using the lance to carry a banner then upright is the only sensible position.

Indeed, the Ashmolean picture has some mounted at 45 (first and second rank about to make contact) and a couple at 60, in the second and third rank of formations making contact. Other units, like the fleeing Gensdarmes on upper border, the incoming on the left or right around 80°.

There are dozens of depictions that show lances at 80-90° level, and even this one has the majority at this level.

I assume its a question of physics. If you move forward to lean it slightly forward to compensate for air drag, so fast moving knights are sometimes shown with some angle. Sometimes lances had flags or elaborate decorations to catch this drag and make handling at angles easier (the Altdorfer Alexanderschlacht, while not historical, shows nice pushles around the lance for this effect). When level, the weight can be caught with the elbow, but usually you will want the weight to be vertical. There is almost no stabilizating factor near the 45° level. Just try to keep a lance (or lacking that, a pole weighting not below 3kg and 3m long) near one end at 45° for some time (lets say 10 min, not even the hours these knights moved around), and then do the same at a near upright position (outside). You will never field your Gensdarmes and Knights with 45° lances after that :-)
The only place these would have in my army is as "standins" for leveled lances, to enable units to be moved together, or as second ranker after a first rank with leveled lances.

Certainly vertical or near-vertical for me.
- For all the gaming practicality reasons given by others. Levelled is a complete non-starter.
- Most of the time on the board figures are in reserve or moving up towards combat so would need to have their lances vertical for ease of carrying.
- Contemporary pictures showing intermediate angles seem to me to be capturing very brief intermediate point that conveys movement and a sense of progression (the same pictures usually showed levelled lances further forward and vertical at the back) but doesn't represent the usual situation.

But however the lances are held, I shall look forward to seeing them in the metal after this teaser. Should I hold off buying any more of he currently available unsatisfactory Italian wars gendarmes in the hope of something better? :-)