"Look Ma! No dice." Topic

Dear List

I made a thread on the "Dice" bard but it might as well go here. Forgot to crosspost.

I've been experimenting for a while with different arrangements of dice. Combining different faced die, a-symmetrical die, dice with gaps in the numbers (1,3,5,7,9,11,) and another with 0,2,4,6.8,10. AND assymetcal in that the faces are slightly different.

I recently ginned up a set of wargame rules for the ancient world which used instead of dice, throwing sticks, as they really used in the ancient world. These are pieces of simple half-round molding cut into 8" lengths. As such they also function as measuring sticks for movement. The rounded face is painted black, and the flat face white. The black face has a thin red band halfway up which is melee range.

Anyway the game considers by the number of white faces tossed. You toss three sticks, and the number of white faces is the score. This can be used for simple numeric comparisons, or for invoking "Gods". It works rather well and destroys the ingrained "probability" counting dice have. In some ways it's more truly random and is probably more akin to the tossed coin, only three of them at once.

The next thing I am considering is if I used quarter round molding I could have a black rounded side, and the other two flat sides could be white and say green. The only problem I see with this is determining what happens when the stick lands with the rounded (black) face down. How do you determine whether it is the white or the green face that is up? Also, would it be worthwhile if the "off-black" face was considered. For example, if the stick lands with the white face down or the green face down, thus making the other colored face be part of the black face roll? What I mean is one result for a black face up with the green side showing and one for the black face up with the white showing. On the tosses with the black face down and the greena and white up, the problem remains as to which face do you count?

Interesting is that depending on what sort or other lumber bric-a-brackery you use for the sticks. Triangular sections, etc.

Another method for the ancient games or even medieval I am thinking of is runes. This would be having a set of small wooden pieces (you can get them for tiling at hobby stores etc) and take a handful and throw them. The runes on one side the other blank. Whatever comes up is the result. No need bothering with the folderol of actual runes, simply write the results on the tiles.

I do this a lot. I've even figured out a way of using Tarot Cards for combat resolution. It's cumbersome but it can yield very interesting results. For example.

You have lots of free time it seems. Interesting thoughts for sure.

Avalon Hill's old game UP Front had a very interesting non-dicing game system. All of the information needed was on the cards.

iirc combat resolution was still done using dice though, it was essentially Squad Leader dropped a level and with abstract range bands instead of hexes. It even had SL weapon malfunction and vehicle breakdown numbers.

A fabulous and innovative game design, which naturally went the way of many innovative game designs….

No, there were no dice in UpFront. I've played hundreds of games of it and enjoyed it greatly. Just got it out last month to teach my 10 year old son. He loves it now too.

"…what happens when the stick lands with the rounded (black) face down. How do you determine whether it is the white or the green face that is up?"

Rather than 1/4-round, how about an outside trim piece.
link

This is a 90 degree angle piece with equal length sides. You could paint the "outside" (convex) in black. Then paint each side of the inside (concave) a different color such as white and green. Which ever side is sticking up would be the result you use.

Many places like Home Depot, Lowes, etc. as well as hobby stores have hobby/craft sections of different shaped wood. I've never seen, never looked for either, but could there be a triangular shaped piece of wood?

Also, Plastruct and Evergreen used to make trim pieces in craft sizes. You could check in to that as a possibility of shapes and sizes to use. Hobby and model RR shops carry a lot of that kind of stuff.

Dear Zone of Control.

Yes, been there many times, Lowe's gets a lot of my money. I haven't seen the triangular piece recently but I did see it at one time. Saw many others.

Actually you can go to AC More or any other craft store and use popsicle sticks, which are flat on both sides, and smaller.

The hard part about a triangular stick is the interrelationship of the values. Remember that dice, throwing sticks, whatever you use they have no value in and of themselves, they are merely decision makers. You could just as well have an aurispex read the entrails of a pidgeon to make a decision as to who hits who. The real key Is getting that decision.

Dozens, hundreds of times in the game you have a conflict over the "narrative." The "narrative" is the battle report AFTER the game which tells what happened. During the tame this narrative continues step by step with each player having a different vector of where he wants the narrative to go. Assume two units are in melee. Side A wants himself to win, side B wants himself to win. The decision is made as to whose narrative is followed.

dice, throwing sticks, Runes, tarot cards, great green gobs of greasy grimy gopher guts-- doesn't matter-- it's all to decide which "narrative" vector you put in.

Dear Combat Painter

I have a two hour drive one way, to work, four hours a day in the car. Lottsa time to think on wargame rules and ideas.

Otto

4 HoUrs per day in a car.. You Man or Megaman OS? :) Phew mentally exhausted thinking about it.
Cheers

Dear Zargon

Yup and that's on a good day with no traffic jams. Get up at 3:00 am to go to work, put in 12 hours a day, then drive two hours home. Did it for 30 years. You learn to cope. Then it's working on games and doing chores around the house and then to bed at 12:00 midnight.

See I live in a very beautiful part of New Jersey, up in the northwest corner of the state, out in the country (up till 10 years ago we had more cows than people) . It's a far cry from the strip-mall sprawl in the suburban area I work in, or the urban decay I used to.

So if I'm not listening to the news I have classic music on and I'm thinking about games, desiging rules, thinking up funny names for units.

After reading OSchmidt's comment above I truly want a game where one shakes a plastic pigeon and looks at the organ bits that come out, maybe like the rocket in Starfarers of Catan.

Anyway the game considers by the number of white faces tossed. You toss three sticks, and the number of white faces is the score. This can be used for simple numeric comparisons, or for invoking "Gods". It works rather well and destroys the ingrained "probability" counting dice have. In some ways it's more truly random and is probably more akin to the tossed coin, only three of them at once.

The more ancient tossing sticks gives a neat feel to the process. Call me dense, but I don't follow the above. If you have two possible sides and three sticks to toss, how does that destroy any 'probability' counting? Or a tossed coin more random than dice, whether one or three coins if the probability of a particular result can still be calculated?

I'm giving you 5 platinum stars OS, you deserved em and a real good recording of Debussy, Clair de lune.
Cheers go well and enjoy your beautiful NJ (I too am in cow country but awaiting the rains 'they're late' so its dry and dusty at this time)

I'm with McLaddie: How does 'counting white sides" differ from rolling a 2?

I know one game got rid of dice in favor of rock paper scissors with 2 added gestures, so you had a 5x5 decision making grid. "No Go zone" from Warm acre. It was for a cops vs. criminals type game.

Have you tested the odds of flat vs round side when tossing sticks?