"Surface Battle group vs Modern Naval Battles" Topic

Am very tempted to get a game rather than miniatures. I've never played either of these games, so can anyone give me some idea of complexity, pros and cons, etc. I mentioned in a previous post that I play Seastrike. I like the game, not too complex, but I want to have more specific ship types than the generic ones that it uses. Also, I want to have something that I can convert at a later date to miniatures in either 1/3000 or 1/6000.

I have SBG and the best way to describe it is Harpoon lite. Which is not a bad thing, Harpoon sounds good till you try to play it…

SBG rounds munitions off to groups of 4 and has predone ship forms for quite a few of the major combatants. Surface and Air search Radars as well as Sonar are marked by quality in a good, better, best fashion (A,B,C, etc. in game terms).

So if you wanted to like Harpoon but the detail drove you off then SBG is worth a look.

I never played Harpoon…only the computer game (many years ago…). Still, SBG sounds good. Would I be right in thinking you get counters with the game? (This is until I can persuade an opponent to buy a fleet.)

Yes you do get counters for the game about a page worth – not enough for every ship type used in the game but covers the major ship types (they are very nice too). It is not a board game though but a miniatures game.

If you can handle lower detail pictures there is a web site out there with counters of almost every ship class from WWI to the present. Scroll down a little bit to get to them.

cke1st.com/m_games4.htm

Thanks. As soon as SWMBO let's me, I'll send off an order. The only other query I had was about the MNB game. I it any good?

MNG is a great game … and I emphasize game. You can see more about it the link below, including a video review.

link

Mark

You can actually get the five sheets of counters from the Harpoon game for $10 USD on the Clash of Arms site, which is a good deal as their counters are pretty good.

Harpoon is definitely not for everyone and is a lot of work for the umpire/referee before and during the game. However, it is the best simulation of modern naval warfare that there is out there and you will learn probably more than you want to know about sensors, weapons arcs, ASW, etc. Most gamers want action, die rolling, and to see things blow up, which doesn't always happen in Harpoon or it can be a one-sided affair, which is difficult for gamers to accept. Modern naval warfare is about using your technology assets, trying to ascertain the situation, deciding when and what to launch, and being patient, particularly if submarines are involved, which unfortunately, are all things that most gamers don't like to do!

Harpoon's problem is that you can't see the forest for the trees. It is *SO* detailed that it is impossible to do much more then start the scenario at just a little past detection range with a handful of ships.

G'day all,

MNB is a card based game (with some dice rolling) – as mentioned above it has a lot of abstraction – this I find in it's favour! It focuses my play on asset management and planning in an enjoyable way.
I posted a review of MNB at:
link
and in that review are links to some games that we have played using miniatures to get the "look".

Could you use smaller miniatures with either set of rules? I'm thinking of some old Navwar 1/3000 at my parents' in the UK, or getting some new 1/6000 ships.

With SBG it says to either use the scale as written for 1/6000 ships or use CM instead of inches. Harpoon I don't think that will work since I believe it uses CM already (been awhile since I played it).

You can use any size miniatures with MNB, or for that matter any set of modern naval rules given the ground/sea scale distortion.
Some rules may have strange measuring effects if the ship model is large.. but sensible players will find away around that.

Just looked at the Tornado Games site. Is SBG available only as a pdf? I have had hassles before with printing download purchases; I live in Japan, use a Japanese language computer, and despite what the experts say, I still get problems with reading pdf files.

Surface Battlegroup I find superior to Harpoon which is virtually unplayable. There are significant improvements in the way SBG handles combat and detection, since all the values that people use for both games are guesses, educated or otherwise, also, the generic combat of Harpoon which specifies a set value of damage, is changed to a random value in SBG. A significant improvement to my mind. SBG is available from the Wargame Vault, along with all its supplements.

I know I sound a broken record on this topic, but Mal Wright's Command Information Centre (CIC), a General Quarters I/II variant, is my favorite modern game. Premade sheets for hundreds of ship types, too. I just posted the 2008 version of the rules with a couple of additions of my own to the NavWarGames Yahoo! Group.

Looking for them with interest but can't manage to find them yet ..

Sorry, colkitto, I thought I uploaded them successfully but I don't see the files in the list. It may be that I don't have upload privileges there (I'm not a moderator).

There is a .zip file there with the 2002 version of CIC, which may have many of the ship sheets & etc. (don't know for sure). The 2002 is the original; Mal issued updates in 2006 and 2008. I just posted mine to a Dropbox folder; I can share it with interested parties (PM me).

There's a nice free modern variant of General Quarters 1 & 2 accessible via the Naval Wargames Societies website

link

Lots of stats for the Falklands War and other South American potential scenarios. Also files for US and Soviet era vessels

Ken Hall

Any chance of a zip file of the updated CIC rules being sent to:

darrenpowelATbtinternetDOTcom

Much appreciated if you can. been after this set for a while now.

Ken,

I do not have PM ability, can you send it to me: gregoryfk@gmail.com. Thanks muchly.

SBG is fun, I played it once at a con. Just don't include a Battleship if you want any return players. In the game I played, I was the USS New Jersey, and I had a Ticonderoga for escort. the +/- 30 ship Russian fleet failed to leave much of an impression on me, and ended up running off after 3 salvos destroyed their 3 biggest ships. (I would say this was represented accurately, some would disagree)

Anyone getting within main gun range of a battleship with modern ships is going to have a really bad day. No modern ships are designed to take hits from 2700lbs at Mach 2, and the modern radars make the difficult parts of battleship gunnery, knowing the range/bearing/course, simple. The battleship is left with the variables of local weather and exact muzzle velocity.

Harpoon is pretty good as a computer game (or computer-moderated game). I have no desire to even attempt it without computer support. But I've noticed that about a lot of naval games: too much detail, not enough focus on what the actual tactical decisions getting made by the captains are.

I must admit that my interest is less the captains decisions as the Admirals and a fun game that I can use lots of ships with. Which is why MNB floats my boat.

I will grant that fleet operations (aka Admiral's decisions) are probably more interesting for most people.

I should probably take a look at MNB.

Very soon after picking up MNB we started to add house rules to try to capture important (to us) features/destinctions/details – which slowed the game, added confusion and at the end of the day didn't make for a better game. We are back to the Rules As Written, with one optional rule (row modifier to AS) and one house rule ( sunk Subs do not count to victory as they are over expensive in VP to vunerability/capability).

The above link to my review on BGG also has a link to pictures of some games using 1/700 scale ships – fleet games of 3-4 hr with model ships, missiles and aircraft – and occasional biological ;-)

Lastly – if the fleets look to be lacking in small ships – think of it as they were there doing the necessary but not notiably effecting the battle

Ps the MNB campaign expansion add missile depletion and a few other modifiers that are a great addition to the game – basically another level of decisions/ missions etc

Can't see the link.

Gday all,

Sorry about that – see below

MNB is a card based game (with some dice rolling) – as mentioned above it has a lot of abstraction – this I find in it's favour! It focuses my play on asset management and planning in an enjoyable way.
I posted a review of MNB at:

link

and in that review are links to some games that we have played using miniatures to get the "look". See:

link

Ps the good paint job ships and aircraft aren't mine…
Mac take a bow.