"Sherman confusion" Topic

I won't be the first person to be confused with the multiple versions of the Sherman, but I have basically got my brain around the M4A3 and M4A4 versions and variants, and when to use them in my games.

However, I am still confused by the M4A1. The A1 bit makes me think it's an older version, yet they fitted the 76mm gun to some of them and made Jumbos of some too.

Aso can I use the M4A1 75mm in 1944-45 alongside my Us M4A3 and Brit M4A4?

Do they need to be in separate discrete units or can they just be mixed in?

Your advice would be welcomed

Thanks

I'm no expert, but the designations have to do with production runs, rather than "improvements"… even though some were "better" than others.

This wiki article has a chart showing how some variants were in production at the same time.

link

The 76s began to be installed later. So an A2 could have a 76, and still be an A2.

A2s and A4s are primarily exports (though the USMC used the A2 along with the A3).

Chalfant

Anything with an "E" usually represents a more significant change.

Chalfant

the m4 and m4a1 are the same basic tank but the a1 has a rounded cast hull, but mechanically they are the same and often served in the same units.
a2 is a welded hull diesel engine model but can have 75 & 76 turrets, just like the m4, m4a1 and m4a3.
the jumbos were on late m4a3 hulls only.
shermans are a bit like that but once you get to know the difference are then easier to understand.
britsh had mainly m4a2 and m4a4 with a few m4's and m4a1, they had a bigger mix in Italy and used the m4a1 76mm there as well as the m4 105mm.
I hope that helps.

Just to bump up the confusion to a higher level, the British gave them Roman numeral designatons which usually, but not always, was one number higher than the "a" designation.

These may be of interest (to mention a few)…

TMP link
TMP link
TMP link
TMP link
TMP link

A lot of it is to do with engines. The M4 and M4A1 had the Continental radial, which is the reason the Sherman is such a tall tank. The tank was designed to fit the engine.
The M4A2 was diesel engined with a pair of GMC straight 6's.
The M4A3 had the V8 Ford GAA engine.
The M4A4 had the Chrysler multibank.
The M4A6 had a Caterpillar radial diesel.
Best engine was the V8 Ford GAA. Worst was the Chrysler multibank, which was probably the worst tank engine ever built. So they gave the M4A4's to the British who were used to c**p tank engines.
The British in NWE had mostly A4's, in Italy more of mix as they still had some M4 and A1's in service from the original shipments for the desert battles. The US in NWE had a mix of M4's, A1's and A3's. I have seen pictures of all types in the same unit, so although in theory they kept subtypes in separate units in practice with losses and replacements that didn't happen all the time.
All the production Firefly tanks in British service were built on A4's.

Where to use mixed 75/76 Shermans…Arracourt, Sept. '44.

CCA of the 4th Armored division had the 37th tank
battalion. Able Company of that command had mixed
Shermans, both 75mm and 76mm equipped. 1st Lt. De Craene
platoon leader of 2nd platoon, had a 76mm-armed
Sherman.

De Craene did not survive the action in which he charged
a Panther.

Not all Fireflies were based on the Sherman V (M4A4). Later Fireflies were built on Sherman I (M4) 'Hybrid' hulls, which had a cast nose like that of the Sherman II (M4A1) welded on to the Sherman I (M4).

Boy is this all confusing….,,

This all coming from a forgotten stash of WW2 I found in the loft and going back to around 1995!

Think I am going to just have to rely on using generic Shermans. But I will keep the Fujimi M4A1s in my US force, and put a Matchbox M4A3 76 in with every two Fujimis.

This leaves me with a British regt of 6 crappy old Airfix Shermans and 3 Matchbox Fireflys.

I clearly have far too many Jumbos and M4A3 76, having inadvertently duplicated part of my 20mm stash with PSC and Italeri fast build.

Or maybe I should just chuck the old stuff onto eBay….? :)

Sherman there were a plenty of.
Maybe this can help.

M4 or Sherman I in the UK-Angled hull and Wright radial engine
M4A1 or Sherman II-wright radial and rounded hull
M4A2 or Sherman III- twin GM diesels in angled hull
M4A3 or Sherman IV-Ford V-8 in angled hull
M4A4 or Sherman V- five Chrysler six cylinders in an lengthened and angled hull
M4A5-didn't exist
M4A6-guiberson diesel in a lengthed and angled hull, maybe a hundred built

To add to the problem there was also a hybrid of the M4 with a round nose welded on to an angled hull.
The 105mm howitzer version usually had the letter 'H' added to the end of the designation i the US.

Other modifications to basic tanks were added to the end of the system. So a M4A3 that was built as the heavy assault Sherman was called the M4A4E2. (Jumbo)

The later track assembly models with HVSS suspension would add E8 to their designation. So, an M4A1E8 would be a round hulled, wright powered, HVSS suspension in the US Army.

Now the UK simplified this a bit. They had Sherman Is, IIs, IIIs even a slight handful of IVs and a whole slew of Vs. They would add a letter to signify any special weapon other than the ordinary 75mm. So an 'A' was for the 76mm', a 'B' was for a 105mm howitzer, a 'C' was for a 17 pdr. They also added a 'Y' for the HVSS suspension.

So in the UK, a Sherman IIIAY was a twin GM diesle powered tank with a 76mm main gun and the late mdel suspension.

Another example would be a Sherman VC. A Chrysler multibank powered 17 pdr or a Firefly.

Sherman IIB being a wright radial with an angled hull and a 105mm howitzer.

Confused yet???

The US kept the A3s mostly for themselves.
Although the USMC liked the A2s as their small landing craft were mostly diesel engined too.
There weren't really enough A6s other than for testing.

The UK got everything else though.Especially the A4s.

The USSR got half of the A2 production, keeping all ruskie armour as diesel powered.

There are only 3 types of Sherman.

75mm
76mm
Firefly.

Special mention for funnies and Jumbos.

The M4 only came with the 75mm gun. The M4A1 came both ways, 75mm early, 76mm later. Same for M4A3. I believe the M4A4 only came with the 75mm, but the British converted many of them to Fireflies (known officially as Sherman Vc, all Fireflies getting a c tacked onto their usual ID -- there were also Sherman IIc Fireflies, IIRC.) The diesel versions were used by the Marines and sent to the Soviets.

The A number indicated a variant, an E number indicated a sub-variant. An M4A3E2 being an M4A3 with extra armor and special turret, and an M4A3E8 being a later model M4A3 with horizontal volute suspension.

In northwest Europe the US started out with M4s and M4A1s, but gradually replaced them with M4A3s, including E2s and E8s. The British and Commonwealth had mostly M4A4/Sherman V and Vc, with some M4A1/Sherman II and IIc, I believe. I don't remember what the French were given -- maybe diesels?

Wasn't any IIc for a list of British Shermans see link

The answer to this problem is to cover your Shermans with so much baggage and brica-brac that no one can tell what type they are. Be sure to obscure the gun-mantle too because that can be a dead-giveaway.
Rod Robertson

According to the Century Tracks book on The Sherman tank in French service, the French received examples of almost every type of Sherman produced, some 16 different models. Though some were in small numbers and others arrived as late as the last week of the war.

There is a reason that so many books are written about the Sherman.

I prefer the rounded cast hull of the M4A1 over the angular welded hulls of the other versions.

To keep the proliferation of Shermans straight, I have found it easiest to first commit to memory the basic variants. Only then do I worry about the details.

The basic variants were NOT based on combat features, but on manufacturing features. The program to go from < 100 mediums built from 1918 to 1940, to > 50,000 mediums built from 1941 to 1945, required an enormous amount of attention to manufacturing. Differences in the Sherman family were, first and foremost, factory and supply issues.

Basic variants:

M4: welded hull, radial engine
M4A1: cast hull (rounded), radial engine
M4A2: welded hull, diesel engine (dual GMC truck engines)
M4A3: welded hull, V8 gas tank engine (Ford "GAA")
M4A4: extended welded hull, Chrysler multi-bank engine

Once you have those down, you can then decode most of the rest, and can talk through the family.

The US Army selected the M4 and M4A1 as their standard mediums in 1942. In mid-1943 they selected the M4A3 as their preferred standard medium, and the M4 and M4A1 were relegated to "alternate Standard", meaning they would be used if and when there were not enough M4A3s to do the job.

There were several upgrades to production resulting from combat experiences in North Africa. The gun mantlet was widened (from the M34 to the M34A1 mantlet), and applique armor was fitted to the hull sides and turret cheek. These are generally referred to as mid-war production. They were replaced by re-located ammo storage with water sleeves ("wet" stowage) and a new up-armored turret, and eventually a whole new turret from the T23, a medium tank that was never accepted for standard production.

All of these variants started with 75mm guns. The M4A1, M4A2 and M4A3 were later up-gunned with the 76mm M1A1 gun. The British upgraded several variants with the 17pdr (but also took many with the 76mm gun for service in Italy). The M4 and M4A3 were also produced as assault guns with a 105mm howitzer.

Any "E" designator was NOT standard terminology. E indicated an experimental project. The most famous (and successful) experiments were up-armoring (the E2 project, called the Jumbo) and changing to the HVSS suspension with a wider track (the E8 project). But M4A3E2 or M4A3E8 were never official designation. And M4A3E2 tells you nothing about which gun was mounted, only that it was an M4A3 hull that was up-armored.

So … if you say you have an M4A3E8 (wrong actual designation) what you actually have is a "76mm Medium Tank M4A3 (w) HVSS". But that's a bit of a mouthful for front line troopers, so they tended to call it an Easy-8.

When the US went in to Normandie the M4A3 was already the standard medium. But none of the units that landed on D-Day were equipped with it yet. They had mid-production M4s and M4A1s, which they had been equipped with 6 to 9 months earlier. Newly formed divisions (and independent battalions) with M4A3s started to come ashore after D-Day. M4A3s also formed the majority of replacement mediums, so over time the older divisions came to have several on inventory. By fall of 1944 the M4A3 might have been as much as half of the Shermans in ETO.

The first 100 76mm-armed Shermans to be shipped to ETO were M4A1s. They started coming ashore within weeks of D-Day, and were parceled out among the existing units at the rate of a few per battalion. By fall the 76mm M4A3 was also coming in to ETO in some numbers, so that by the time of the Bulge most US tank divisions had mostly 75mm M4A3s with some 76mm M4A3s in each battalion. But many independent tank battalions still did not have any 76mm Shermans.

The first 105mm Shermans to come ashore in ETO were M4s, in the late summer of 1944. By fall the 105mm M4A3 was also coming into service. They also were parceled out, though in this case that's more reasonable as the TOE only provided for a few per battalion. Independent battalions received their allocations far faster than they got 76mm armed Shermans. By winter, almost all medium tank units in ETO had their full allotment of 105mm Shermans. They were very popular.

In late fall the first HVSS Shermans started to appear. Progressively more came into service, so that by the end of hostilities in May 1945 they were a substantial portion, though not the majority, of Mediums in the theater. Almost all 76mm M4A3 (w) HVSS went to units in France, which had priority for the preferred (standard) mediums. Most of the 76mm M4A1 (w) HVSS (alternate standard) went to units in Italy.

That's from memory. It is possible that I overlooked some details of who got what when.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Oh and BTW, of all the basic variants the one with the best automotive performance was … the M4A4.

Yes, the best performing Sherman was reserved exclusively for export clients. Most went to Britain, some to France. The US Army did not operate it except for training and testing.

While some have called it the worst tank engine ever, I have read British accounts describing it as pure genius. In any case it was complicated (4 car engines around a single crank shaft). The US turned it down mostly because they had already selected their versions, and had a manufacturing program to support their requirements. The A4 was conceived, from the outset, as a way to build more Shermans, so that allies might get them in greater numbers. It seems the British liked them just fine.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

The M4A3 did not fight in Normandy, they didn't start being issued in Europe until after Cobra and the Breakout. This was for logistic reasons. The M4 and M4A1 used the same engine, the Continental Radial. It simplified the shipment of spare engine parts. The M4A1 76mm Wet version appeared shortly before Cobra, until then all American tanks were armed with the 75mm (the 105 armed Howitzer version was considered an assault gun and was slowly supplanting the M8HMC).

British versions used in Normandy (gun tanks) were;
M4A4 (British designation Sherman V when armed with the 75mm, Vc when armed with the 17 pounder (the Firefly))
M4A2 (British designation Sherman III, only armed with the 75mm, and only dry hull versions)
M4A1 (Sherman II, armed only with the 75mm and only dry versions.)

British returns from 21st Army Group also show 2 Sherman Ic tanks on strength, these would have been M4s rearmed with the 17 pounder gun. These should NOT be confused with the Sherman 1c hybrid, which was based on the late (and rare in Europe) M4 hull which had a front glacis plate from the cast hull versions (M4A1) and the rear from a welded Sherman (usual M4) armed with a 17 pounder to make it a Firefly. Firefly BTW was never an official designation. Post breakout the Polish Armoured Divisions which fought in NWE with the British received some M4A1 76mm (W) tanks.

The French were issued the M4A2 and M4A4, all armed with the 75 mm gun, all dry hull versions.

M4A2s were also sent to the Soviets. Both the 75 mm and 76 mm versions, almost all (except for 20 tanks sent to Britain) 76mm production went to the Soviets.
The HVSS suspension tanks, commonly referred to as M4A3E8 or "Easy 8s" didn't reach the battlefield until December of 1944, when 20 were issued to 3rd Army.

The M4A3E2, so called "Jumbo" was a rare tank, only some 254 were manufactured, 250 were issued to units in NWE. All tanks were kept by US Army units.

The British also had around 250 Sherman DD tanks on strength in Normandy. These were the so called "swimming Shermans", based on the Sherman II 75mm tank (American M4A1 75 (W)). Many of the American tanks had never made the beach on D-Day.

If you wish to learn more I can suggest the following books;

"Sherman, A History of the American Medium Tank", Hunnicutt
"Armored Thunderbolt, The US Army Sherman in WW2" Zaloga

There are literally hundreds of little nuanced differences between the main types, direct vision hulls, different turrets, different gun mantlets and the like. When you throw in field modifications and ordnance shops keeping the tanks going by repairing this model with parts from that model the variations are staggering.

jowady for the "best answer." The upcoming movie 'Fury' features an M4A3E8 and the story takes place in April 1945. The Tiger they borrowed from the Bovington museum is an early production version though, but it's the only running example of a real Tiger and they didn't want to sub with a modified T-34 like in SPR. Here's the Easy Eight engaging the Tiger at point blank range. Very cinematic:

I don't care what you say about its lack of realism, I'm going to see the movie on its opening weekend anyway.

OK here's a list of which Commonwealth/Polish/Czech divisions/brigades in NW Europe had what in terms of Shermans:

7th Armoured Division: Cromwells, plus Sherman Vc Firefly

11th Armoured Division: Sherman V & Vc Firefly

Guards Armoured Division: Sherman V & Vc Firefly

4th Canadian Armoured Division: Sherman V, Vc Firefly & Ib.

5th Canadian Armoured Division: Sherman V, Vc Firefly & some Ib Close Support tanks (all brought from Italy in Jan 45).

1st Polish Armoured Division: Sherman V & Vc Firefly

4th Armoured Brigade: Sherman II & Vc Firefly.

8th Armoured Brigade: Sherman III, Vc Firefly & II DD.

27th Armoured Brigade: Sherman III, Vc Firefly & V DD.

30th Armoured Brigade: Sherman V Crab (& some Sherman V, mainly used as command tanks).

33rd Armoured Brigade: Sherman I & Vc Firefly.

1st Canadian Armoured Brigade: Sherman V, Vc Firefly and Ib.

2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade: Sherman III, Vc Firefly & V DD.

1st Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade: Mainly equipped with Cromwells, though including a tiny handful (5 or so) of Sherman Vc Firefly.

Notes:

1. A great many Sherman Vc Fireflies were replaced by Ic Hybrid Fireflies from late 1944 onward.

2. The DDs steadily disappeared as they were lost in battle and replaced with 'normal' Shermans.

3. There could often be the odd 'rogue' Sherman of another type, supplied as a battle replacement.

4. All 75mm-armed Sherman V in 1st Polish Armoured Division were replaced with 76mm-armed Sherman IIa during the winter of 1944/45. The division retained its Fireflies.

5. The 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade and 5th Canadian Armoured Division brought all their tanks from Italy. Unlike British and South African brigades in Italy, they were never issued with any Sherman IIa, though they did have a pair of 105mm-armed Sherman Ib in every squadron.

6. Sherman artillery OP tanks tended to be of the same main type as the rest of the formation.

Italy Notes:

1. I don't have my Italy lists to hand, but the main types used in Italy were the Sherman III & V. 4th Armoured Brigade took most of the remaining Sherman II with them to the UK and then to Normandy.

2. Sherman IIa started appearing in the late summer of 1944 and by 1945 had almost completely replaced 75mm-armed Shermans in some formations – particularly 2nd Armoured Brigade (1st Armoured Division) and 6th South African Armoured Division. All British armoured brigades in Italy had Sherman IIa, with some (such as 7th Armoured Brigade) ending up with a three-way split in each troop of 75mm, 76mm and 17pdr, as well as 105mm in Sqn HQs! I seem to remember that the 2nd NZ Armoured Brigade also received some Sherman IIa, though memory is hazy.

3. Sherman Ib also started appearing in the late summer of 1944, with two being allocated to every British, Polish, Canadian, South African and New Zealand Sherman Squadron HQ. This allocation was complete by 1945.

4. Fireflies (a mix of Vc and Ic Hybrid) started appearing in November 1944, going first to the Canadians, who had not received any Sherman IIa. The 2nd Polish Armoured Brigade was next, as they had also not received any IIa. 7th Armoured Brigade and 2nd NZ Armoured Brigade also received some.

5. 9th Armoured Brigade converted to specialist armour during the winter of 1944/45 and included Sherman DD (II DD, I think), Sherman V Crab and Sherman Kangaroos, as well as some other Sherman 'Funnies' such as ARKs and bridge-carriers.

Burma Notes:

1. All Shermans used in action by British and Indian armoured regiments in Burma were Sherman V. There were some other types of Sherman in India, including V DDs, but these weren't used in combat.

2. The US-Chinese Provisional Armoured Group, which was mainly issued with M3A3 Light Tanks (Stuart V), received a small number of M4A4 Mediums (Sherman V) from British stocks.

I should imagine that you are more confused than ever now!
good luck with what ever Sherman you use.

I should imagine that you are more confused than ever now!

Just what I was thinking too – sorted ! ;o)

While some have called it the worst tank engine ever, I have read British accounts describing it as pure genius. In any case it was complicated (4 car engines around a single crank shaft). The US turned it down mostly because they had already selected their versions, and had a manufacturing program to support their requirements. The A4 was conceived, from the outset, as a way to build more Shermans, so that allies might get them in greater numbers. It seems the British liked them just fine.

I'm sure the mechanics weren't that enamoured with them. You had to pull the whole power pack even for simple things like changing the spark plugs. Oh and it was 5 engines not 4. Apparently keeping all 5 engines synced was also a challenge. Yes the concept was a clever one – to get a powerful enough engine into production quickly, but if it was such a great idea how come nobody has done it since? All the sources I have read claim the best engine was the Ford GAA V8. Powerful, reliable and easy to maintain and the country that got most of those – USA!

And in answer to one of the questions, yes, the US tried to group their tanks by type because of the engine differences that everyone is talking about. While not universal it was easier to keep all the M4 and M4A1 variants (radial engines) in the same unit and apart from the M4A3s and its variants (V8 engines). Strictly from a maintenance perspective mind you and its still possible to find mixed Sherman variants in the same unit.

Of course, for many of us using these in a wargame it's largely academic as, from 3 feet away, they all look largely the same!!

Engines from the UK perspective,,,.

Well at least it wasn't a liberty engine designed to be lightweight and in an aircraft. The engine block had this habit of falling apart when subjected to the shocks of being tank mounted. It may have had the ability to push a fifteen ton Crusader up to 50 mph at last if it worked and before it fell apart.

Then there was the entire Churchill drive train. This was the tank that was so rushed into production that it came with a note from the manufacturer stating that they realized it never went through a complete development, so this is how you suggest improvements to the manufacturer through the army chain of command. Given that it turned into a reliable workhorse is miraculous given this teething problems.

The most reliable enginge they came up with was a version of the Rolls Royce Meteor from the aircraft industry. That was only because it was already in production for eight years.

Now the Chrysler multi-bank was a godsend to the British. It provided sufficient power on five engine to a common crankshaft. Each engine itself was reliable and it was something of a hit with the British who love to turn a wrench. Wrench bending being a joy, sport and a hobby to most mechanically minded brits. (If you think orks in 40K you wouldn't be to far off.)

The troops in the field, even ordnance officers, didn't always understand the various designations. For instance, Belton Cooper, who was repairing knocked-out and broken-down Shermans for the 2nd Armored Division, mistakenly thought that M4A1 meant it had a 76mm gun -- presumably because the only 76mm-armed tanks in the 2AD were M4A1s (M4s never being made with the 76mm).

What a fantastic set of posts. Some of these must have taken you ages, so thanks for taking the trouble.

I now feel much better informed. I can even find a use for those extra 76s I happen to have if I can find some Polish decals…. M4A1 76 I presume…..?

So it's going to be M4A3 for my US command, and M4A4 for my Brits. I'm intending to do a full division for each. That should keep me quiet for a while!

Thanks again,

Sorry, in my list above, there shouldn't be a Sherman Ib in the 4th Canadian Armoured Division (cut'n'paste error).

The British 6th Armoured Division in Italy was another formation with very large numbers of Sherman IIa.

What do the a and b designations stand for on British Shermans?

What do the a and b designations stand for on British Shermans?

IIRC, they denote the gun:

a = 75mm
b = 76mm
c = 17lbr
d = 105mm

So a Sherman Vc would be a 17lbr-armed M4A4.

Sorry I didn't clarify – someone listed them earlier.

Just to correct Mserafin (sorry!):

The suffix 'a' indicates 76mm and 'b' indicates 105mm. There is no suffix for 75mm and there's no 'd'. So the list is:

a = 76mm (only the Mk IIa was used – M4A1 76mm W in US-speak)
b = 105mm (only the Mk Ib was used – M4 105mm)
c = 17pdr (only the Mk Vc and Ic Hybrid were used, with a tiny number of 'ordinary' Ic – M4A4 17pdr, M4 Hybrid 17pdr & M4 17pdr)

That's what I get for going with my aging memory…

Good thread this. I've really enjoyed the contributions.