"Army level Napoleonic Rules Question" Topic

What are the difficulties of representing Napoleonic warfare at army level, with brigades as the basic base?

I know Volley & Bayonet does this, but with separate skirmish stands, which I dislike.

Really, I suppose I'm trying to balance history with uniformly sized scenic-style bases – but representing brigades, so that I needn't worry about forming squares &c.

Are there any other rules that attempt this, or homebrewed solutions people have come up with themselves?

Snappy Napy.

I'd still say Volley and Bayonet, but don't use the skirmish stands. Essentially, given the terrain covered by the unit, skirmishers should not be portrayed, but are included in the brigade size stand.

I agree that you can do away with the VnB skirmish stands. If you really felt the need, I think you could work skirmishers into the regular combat somehow if you felt an army had the skirmish advantage or it is an army noted for its skirmishers (something like a savings throw on first contact small arms casualties, or something like that).

Doesn't Grand Armee include the skirmishers in the brigade stand?

Chipco's Le Petit Empereur (spelling?) is at this scale too I believe.

Grand Armee or Fast Play Grand Armee by Mustufa (spelling?).
Like VnB, but no separate skirmish stands- skirmish action is quite well presented.

MG

We call skirmish stands in V&B Detachments and allow them only to be deployed in built up areas or terrain pieces. Then ignore the skirmishers which as raylev says should not be represented in the game scale.

RobH, that is a good idea.

Blucher from Sam Mustafa , arriving sometime in 2015 . perfect for base=brigade . you can put skirmishers on the base if you want to show them

PDF link

Thanks for the heads-up :-)

Grande Armee reflects skirmishing as an inherent ability for each brigade. Thus each stand has a Skirmish Capability but no figures are used. In fact players don't even control their skirmishers – players are army and corps commanders and far too important to be distracted by such piffle.

Age of Eagles uses brigades but not with single bases. I think, however, it would be fairly easy to adapt those rules to single bases using a roster.

Grande Armee.

The V&B skirmished stand is not actually skirmishing, it is in fact a battalion of formed troops detached from a brigade for separate actions e.g The defence of La Haye Saint. There are some Skirmish (SK) ability in certain brigades, but these add to the combat power rather than be a separate part of the fighting.

March Attack by Crusader.

Brigade bases work perfectly well to represent Napoleonic warfare. You have to get away from the line/column/square thing – which is too much for some people – but can still get an authentic feel for the grand tactics. I have played a lot of Grande Armee and its fast play version, as well as studying V+B.

I think the main difficulty with both systems is that the square bases are too deep, giving you a real issue in battles like Borodino, Waterloo or Ligny where troops were packed close together. My homebrew version has bases that are shallower. But many like the creative possibilities that the bigger bases allow.

I do like skirmish bases, but purely for visual reasons – a lot of the fighting was between skirmishers, and I think it makes the fighting look Napoleonic – plus I like to have the jagers etc there somewhere. But they work better as status markers than tabletop units at this scale.

I don't like the way GA handles skirmishers, and you can do perfectly well without it. Skirmish tactics took time, and were a method of attritional warfare. The results of GA SK combat are too variable and transitory to represent meaningful tactical choices.

Hello Inventedregiment!

There are no difficulties in using brigades as your basic unit. If anything I would say there are certainly fewer difficulties, as your not dealing with all the tedious low level tactical issues that bog down a lot of minor tactical rule systems.

Most brigade level rules don't bother with small stands of skirmishers as they are below the level of the game. Some simply put a value on them and include it in their combat effectiveness.

Polemos by Baccus6mm has a Napoleonic rule set that uses scenic bases at brigade level with another set (included) that deals with a more tactical level game. You get two rule sets in one book. Although designed for 6mm figures you can use any scale and any base size. Visit their web site for a complete overview.

Best regards,

Glenn

What are the difficulties of representing Napoleonic warfare at army level, with brigades as the basic base?

Taking this to be the 'particular' difficulties:

1. Battalion strong points. Representing La Haye Sainte becomes problematic, for example.

2. Footprints. Brigades could have very different footprints depending on its strength and disposition.

3. Variable strength. Brigades could vary wildly in strength.

4. Artillery. How do you represent the basic tactical artillery unit of the battery/company/troop or whatever, when each division might only have a single battery.

5. Command/Structure. Do you stick to the brigade strictly as the basic game unit, or do you use a 'regiment' as an intermediate structure for those countries which had massive brigades?

Not that these things can't be overcome by any means, but things to consider. And it is always worth doing, because army-level games using the battalion as the basic unit have just as many problems of their own.

I have used the Polemos and GA/FPGA rules, amongst others, and enjoyed them both.

Thanks for the input guys! I'll have a look for some of those rules at Partizan tomorrow.

@Whirlwind – Battalion strongpoints and artillery are the two that I'm pondering at the moment.

The V&B skirmish stand is not actually skirmishing, it is in fact a battalion of formed troops detached from a brigade for separate actions e.g The defence of La Haye Saint. There are some Skirmish (SK) ability in certain brigades, but these add to the combat power rather than be a separate part of the fighting.

Royal Marine:
While I have no problem with that singular use for the skirmish stands in V&B if that is what the players want, it is not how the designer describes or employs them in his rules. They are called skirmisher stands for a reason and not detachments.

I think the main difficulty with both systems [I am assuming you mean GA and V&B] is that the square bases are too deep, giving you a real issue in battles like Borodino, Waterloo or Ligny where troops were packed close together. My homebrew version has bases that are shallower. But many like the creative possibilities that the bigger bases allow.

I agree. What we have done is make every stand two halves of a square or in V&B two linear stands. When set one behind the other, they are treated as a massed stand, singularly, as linear stands. It takes care of most of the space issues and allows the brigade stand[s] to occupy the front they often did. [600 yards as opposed to 300] The process of going from mass to linear or back again is a 'formation change' as per the rules.

We did the same thing with GA, but had to fuss with the rules more.

And yes, with GA the skirmish rules are a johnny-one-note representation that misses the basic grand tactical issues that skirmishing represented.

There are very few difficulties with using 'Art of Command' Napoleonic rules in re-fighting army battles at battalion/regiment/battery level. Liphook Historical Wargames Group has been successfully fighting most of Napoleon's major battles since 2000. The rules recreate a challenging wargame reflecting the ebb and flow that took place in real time. We are re-fighting Nivelle next Sunday, 14th September, an historical battle lasting 8 hours.

@ McLaddie – do you have any articles on the grand tactical issues of skirmishers?

Inventedregiment:

Sorry. I missed your question. I'll see what I have, as my memory doesn't work that well.

Beresford;

Art of Command. I haven't heard of it and I don't see it coming up with web searches. Where can I find out more about it?