Bunkermeister  | 01 Sep 2014 7:51 p.m. PST |
Now that I am buying Zvezdas very nice 85mm AA gun, I need to know how they were organized. I am looking for very late war organization, 1944/45. I assume four guns per battery, three batteries per company, but that's only a guess. Were they attached to Tank or Mechanized Divisions? Were they separate? Inquiring minds what to know. Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
| jekinder6 | 01 Sep 2014 8:19 p.m. PST |
Looking thru my library and all I can find is 85mm AAA used in 1941-2 as AT guns and tank and mechanized corps had a 12 gun battalion in mid-1943. This unit was replaced by an SU-85 regiment by 1944. By mid war the standard AT Brigade is two 24 gun regiments with 76 or 57mm guns and an SU-85 regiment with 20 SU. |
| Bunkermeister | 01 Sep 2014 8:50 p.m. PST |
Thanks jekinder6. I am looking to use mine in an AA capacity. Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
| Mobius | 01 Sep 2014 9:01 p.m. PST |
37mm and 76mm AA batt. seem to have had 4 guns each. I suppose the 85mm AA was the same. |
| yankincan | 01 Sep 2014 10:18 p.m. PST |
Um, i hope this can answer your question.
link
Or this
PDF link |
| Martin Rapier | 02 Sep 2014 3:38 a.m. PST |
iirc medium AA regiments were usually Corps/Army/Front assets, not assigned to specific Tank/Mech Corps or Rifle divisions. Formations had their own integral AA assets. The AT use was strictly a very temporary stopgap. |
| Griefbringer | 02 Sep 2014 10:08 a.m. PST |
Besides the above, Zaloga's book also mentions independent AA battalion, featuring three gun batteries, each with four 85 mm guns and one 12.7 mm AAMG, plus an optional searchlight battery with 6 searchlights. I have no certain information about internal organisation of the battery, but my educated guess would be for two platoons of two guns each, with the AAMG somewhere around platoon command post. |
| Bunkermeister | 02 Sep 2014 11:15 p.m. PST |
yankincan,thanks you, that's perfect. Thank all of you for your help and contributions. Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
| Griefbringer | 03 Sep 2014 10:41 a.m. PST |
So, how big unit are you going to put together? I guess this is the model you are going to use: link |
| Bunkermeister | 03 Sep 2014 11:11 a.m. PST |
Griefbringer, you are correct, I am using that model. I am looking for TOE information so I can determine the size of unit to build. So far I have four of them, three assembled and one on the building table. I anticipate getting at least 16 at this point, based on the data supplied by yankincan. Photos will be posted on my blog as work continues. Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
| Griefbringer | 03 Sep 2014 11:51 a.m. PST |
16 heavy AA guns – that is going to be quite a lot of flak! What kind of games are you going to use them for? |
| yankincan | 03 Sep 2014 11:56 a.m. PST |
1:1 scale! Thats a lot of toys! Sounds like the ring of death at Gumrak. Have fun. |
| Mark 1 | 03 Sep 2014 1:21 p.m. PST |
The AT use was strictly a very temporary stopgap.
This was my impression for quite some time as well. And I think it was true in 1941. Almost anything that could hurt a tank wound up in some form of ad hoc formation. However I have more recently observed several formations of heavy anti-tank formations deliberately equipped with 85mm guns starting in 1943. They were evidently available in some numbers by the time of the Kursk battles, and thereafter, until they started to be replaced by the 100mm M1944 (BS-3) towards the end of the war. -Mark
(aka: Mk 1) |
| Bunkermeister | 03 Sep 2014 4:24 p.m. PST |
I organize my WWII units on a generally 1-1 scale. Mostly mid- to late war. Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
| Bunkermeister | 03 Sep 2014 4:30 p.m. PST |
According to Order of Battle, The Red Army in WWII by David Porter, published by Amber Books, UK, 2009 on page 173 there is a chart that shows a Tank Corp in April 1945 includes an Anti-Aircraft Regiment with 16 37mm guns and on page 175 a chart shows a Mechanized Corp includes 16 37mm guns. Are these 37mm guns part of the actual TOE of the Tank Corp and Mechanized Corp, or are they attached from the Anti-Aircraft Division, that includes the 85mm AA guns? Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
| Griefbringer | 04 Sep 2014 11:05 a.m. PST |
According to Zaloga, AA regiment appears in tank corps TOE in February 1943. Mechanised corps seem to have them included in TOE from the beginning (September 1942), though it seems that it took a while until most corps would actually have this asset available. And my educated guess is that these AA regiments were integral part of the corps in question. As for AA division, keep in mind that they were intended to provide concentrated air defence under centralised control that could be assigned to important sectors of the front. Not as administrative holding units whose subordinate components could be cross-attached in penny packets all over the place. |
| Bunkermeister | 04 Sep 2014 11:47 p.m. PST |
Griefbringer, that tells me what I need to know. So I have to have all the various units to make the AA Division separate from the AA in the Tank and Mechanized Divisions. Thanks. Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
| Griefbringer | 05 Sep 2014 2:42 a.m. PST |
I would probably think twice before trying to put together an entire AA division in 1:72 scale, since you would need to put together a whole lot of 37 mm guns and AAMGs. Not to mention the size of the table needed to field them. |
| Bunkermeister | 05 Sep 2014 11:19 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the heads up Griefbringer. You have never seen my blog have you? Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
| Bunkermeister | 26 Sep 2014 1:15 p.m. PST |
Don't worry Griefbringer, I have been known to collect large units in the past. One more won't hurt. Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog |
