"1809 Grenz Flagpoles" Topic
10 Posts
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Rhino Co | 31 Aug 2014 7:49 a.m. PST |
I'm painting several battalions of 1809 Grenz infantry using Blue Moon 18mm figures. I've searched the net over and read and reread MAA 299: Austrian Auxiliary Troops and cannot tell if the Grenz flagpoles were painted a solid color, left a natural wood or painted in the Austrian barber pole (black, yellow, red, white). Any direction or assistance from the masses? |
Supercilius Maximus | 31 Aug 2014 9:21 a.m. PST |
Given that they were used as light troops, did they actually carry colours in the field? |
SJDonovan | 31 Aug 2014 1:48 p.m. PST |
Supercilius Maximus is right, they didn't carry their colours in the field. However, according to W.J. Rawkins, (The Austro-Hungarian Army 1798-1814) colours were issued: a Leibfahne going to the first battalion and an Ordinarfahne for the others. He doesn't specifically mention the flag staff but I can see no reason to think that it would not have been painted in the 'barber pole' design. |
Rhino Co | 31 Aug 2014 3:57 p.m. PST |
Thanks Gentlemen. David Hollins said in MAA 299: Austrian Auxiliary Troops, by 1806 they were no longer employed as light troops, but employed in column. That'a the way they're being based. So I'll go with SJDonovan's recommendation and paint the barber pole. |
WeeWars | 31 Aug 2014 6:03 p.m. PST |
David Hollins said this on TMP: "It is now 12 years since I wrote MAA299 and it has been possible to do some more work on the Frontier – the result is mainly MAA413 Austrian Frontier Troops 1740-98, if any of you are interested in the earlier period (which is more colourful)." He said: "Flags were issued, but do not appear to have been carried on campaign." My 1809 Grenz are all being based in open order (without flags): link (And the previous post.) I might have some shoulder-to-shoulder at the rear of some bases for fun (held back in reserve). I can't find any reference to Grenz in action in 1809 other than in BUAs/bad going or or out front skirmishing. That's not to say that they were employed differently to line troops, just that they were obviously favoured to do these tasks. (So I base them that way.) At Essling, Landwehr replaced their thinning ranks on the front line. Both front line troops? I would say they were skirmishing out front. Cheers, Michael |
von Winterfeldt | 31 Aug 2014 11:39 p.m. PST |
Grenzer could be used – as all light infantry in those times – as formed units and as skirmishers – I wouldn't base my Grenzer in open order at all, but some companies or tactical stands as for skirmishers |
latto6plus2 | 01 Sep 2014 3:01 a.m. PST |
Ive gone along the same lines as jager with 2/3rds in close order and 1/3rd skirmish. To complicate things further Ive given them a flagpole with ribbons rather than a flag and painted the pole sky blue & white! |
matthewgreen | 01 Sep 2014 9:45 a.m. PST |
A whole battalion deployed in skirmish would cover a very a large area, which it would be impractical to control. Where you see light troops being divided up into groups of a few companies, it is then that you can expect them to be fully deployed in skirmish. Otherwise most would held as a formed reserve. I think in this era Grenz tended to fight as complete battalions (though not always), though my knowledge of pre 1800 is sketchy. So the I would go along with the last two posters and have about one-third available to deploy in skirmish. I think gamers allow a lot of artistic licence when it comes to flags – and don't mind units with flags even if historically they were left in depot, or (like most Prussian landwehr) were not issued at all. So long as the unit is not fully deployed in skirmish. I would agree that the barber pole style is best guess. |
Supercilius Maximus | 02 Sep 2014 6:15 a.m. PST |
From vaguely recalled discussions with Dave Hollins on the "General de Brigade" forum, I think that both light infantry and light cavalry operated by "divisions" (ie pairs of companies or squadrons), often detached from the main body of the battalion/regiment. John Gill's books on 1809 indicate pairs of divisions of hussars, artillery, jagers, and grenzer acting together in what we would call "combat groups". Hence you'd get a grenzer division skirmishing by, for example, each of the two companies sending forward 1/3 of its men in a firing line, 1/3 supporting by feeding in replacements (for casualties/ammo depletion), and 1/3 in reserve. In such an environment, colours would be less useful as a rallying point, and more vulnerable to capture. |
Marcus Maximus | 25 Sep 2014 3:22 p.m. PST |
Some more information…The Grenze did carry banners in to battle see below: According to the reports of the Wurttemberg Konig Jager at the Battle of Eggmuhl via Gill With Eagles to Glory: " …the Wurttembergers were twice repulsed by the I/Peterwardeiner Grenze….Undaunted by the heavy fire from this small fortress, the Konig Jagers broke in through the doors and set upon the garrison with bayonets and musket butts. Charging from room to room, the Wurttembergers seemed unstoppable and when Jager Seitter wrenched a battalion's banner from one of his oppponents, the remainder of the manor's defenders surrendered. ……….Jager Seitter, personally presenting his trophy (the banner) to the Emperor, was rewarded with the Cross of the Legion of Honour and ten gold napoleons." And lastly in the notes… "Kraft describes the capture of 300 Grenzer and a Flag in Eggmuhl". |
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