"Russia Lies About Invading Ukraine as It Invades Ukraine" Topic

"Where U.S. President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel have failed to make Russian President Vladimir Putin acknowledge his ever-more-overt invasion of Ukraine and think about pulling back, Valentina Melnikova, the head of Russia's famous Soldiers' Mothers Committee, might just have a chance.

Early Thursday morning, Melnikova started getting phone calls from Russian army bosses. All of them, from the deputy defense minister to the paratrooper division commanders, wanted to meet with the great matriarch of the Russian military. She had accused the entire high command, along with Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Putin of invading Ukraine and of committing a crime against Russian citizens by sending Russian soldiers to "the bloody battlefields" without declaring the war, without signing legal papers with the servicemen, without letting Russian mothers know where exactly their drafted sons ended up dying.

The day before, Russian servicemen were fighting shoulder to shoulder with pro-Russian separatists in Novoazovsk, a strategic port city on the Russian border. By taking over Novoazovsk, the separatists cleared the way for more servicemen to pour into Ukraine. "According to our expert analyses," said Melnikova – and few organizations have better information than hers – " there are over 10,000 Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine today."…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

And the surprise is … what ?

The relevant point here is that Russian Duma removed the right for Putin to send troops into Ukraine. By saying that they are all volunteers, fighting while on leave or after their service has finished, ie not with the permission o under the direction of Russia.

If Putin has knowledge of, or has directly ordered troops into Ukraine then he may have broken his own laws.

Not that I think that would really make any difference… unless the Russian people were to decide they have been lied to, which is basically what she is saying…

Really?

I am so disappointed……..

Putin was KGB … lying and such … old habits die hard … if at all …

And all other nations play their cards above the board? Of course Russia and Putin are lying. That is politics as usual. That is was why Glasnost and Perestroika were such a change in Gorbachev's time. What we really should fear is when these people (the West included here) start lying to themselves and convince themselves that war is their only option. Then we are all in for some hard times.
Rod Robertson

My concern is that Putin went into this situation with that image in mind…

Not at all, Rod … We all know that Sun Tzu said something like, all war is deception … And one of the Principles Of War is Surprise. At this point, I beleive the US is being a little too transparent in some cases. But I will leave that history to decide. However, like I said, on another thread, it is very much and extremely unlikely the US will go into a shooting war with the Russians over the Ukraine … Short of the Russians pushing West and heading towards the Channel … it ain't gonna happen …

What is a crit token for …

Like having smoke pouring out of your Fokker Triplane, I find it useful to remind players that this is the TIE fighter with one solar panel shredded and a cracked pilot cockpit …

Ah!?! The comment above is not mine. There must be KGB moles in the TMP system! Here follows what I wrote:
Legion 4:
Agreed, but Ukraine, Europe and ultimately North America may be dragged into a European war due to treaty obligations (NATO) if the balloon goes up in Ukraine and Europe. Its much like 1914 shifted 500 km east and without the railway time-tables.
All war may be deception and all war may be an extension of politics by other means but does that mean we are in a defacto state of war all the time and deception must be accepted as the norm all the time?
Powerful nations are more and more acting like street gangs and weaker nations are getting pushed around politically, economically and militarily. Are we returning to a neo-imperial age where powerful nations carve up the globe and use whatever subterfuge, deception or intimidation they need to, to get a leg up on their imperial rivals?
If so, why not bring back the gilded age when the vast majority of humanity lived in squalor and the few lived like kings? Oh, I forgot we are moving in that direction too, aren't we.
Up until the seizure of Crimea there was no state of war but Russia was lying like a big bear rug playing possum on the floor. All powerful nations are doing it but that does not mean that we have to like it or accept it. It is time for the independent media to blow the whistle on this behaviour and out these liars but instead nations like Canada, Britain and Japan are passing laws to muzzle and manage the media. So we will have to live in a miasma of lies and half-truths until we find the balls to tell our own would-be rulers to cut it out and teach foreign rulers that such behaviour will have serious legal, economic and political costs.
My tantrum is finished.
Rod Robertson

Orwell's "1984" in 2014 ?

No one can afford the war you're imagining. Sorry.

zardoz1957:
Wars often begin against the desires and choices of those who have to fight the war. Worse still, they often spread wider, despite the best efforts of states and nations to contain them. War is unpredictable and fickle and once it is underway uncontrollable. Please do not be sorry for expressing your sentiment but also be cautious about the gruesome potential of war to start and spread when and where you don't expect it to happen.
Rod Robertson

This truly worries me. A lot, People at the church are rubbing their hands together in anticipation that now, very soon, the eastern sky will split and the second coming is here. And THAT boys and girls, really worries me. Anticipation for a coming world war…… Sad, and very sick…..

No one can afford the war you're imagining.

Modern high-tech costs … hopefully that will be just one reason WWIII does not start …

A lot, People at the church are rubbing their hands together in anticipation that now, very soon, …

That is really scary, the same thing happened during the Arab-Israeli War of '47-'48 …

Of beyond the Black Sea and of the great Tartary,
A king comes who will see Gaul,
Piercing across Alania and Armenia,
And within Byzantium he will leave his bloody rod
For seven days the great star will burn,
The cloud shall make two suns to appear:
The big mastiff will howl all night
When the great pontiff changes country.
When those of the arctic pole are united together,
In the East great dread and fear:
Newly elected, supporting the great trembling,
Rhodes, Byzantium with Barbarian blood stained.

Geoff:
We're quoting Nostradamus now!?!? Me thinks this thread is getting rather mystical perchance. Get thee to an augury!
Roddydamus

About time someone brought him up :-)

What would Nostradamus make of the following oh so innocent photo?

Rod Robertson

He'd be shocked – they didn't have cameras then. ;-)

(Innocent? Those eyebrows look highly dodgy to me)

Wonder what he might make of this one, taken in Russia:

Geoff:
An insect which spits fire on the back of a wheeled crocodile?
Pierre de Roddydamus

Russia-Led Military Bloc Ready To Send Peacekeepers To Ukraine.

"The head of the CSTO says its peacekeepers are ready for any operations, including in Ukraine, but their deployment requires the go-ahead from leaders of all member-countries.

"Deployment of the CSTO peacekeeping force can be ordered only by the Collective Security Council – the supreme body formed with heads of state of the member countries. By a joint decision these leaders can order the use of peacekeepers both on the territory of the member-states and also outside their borders," General-Secretary of the Collective Security Treaty Organization Nikolay Bordyuzha, stated on Friday…"
Full article here
link

This will then become a defacto state independent from Kiev protected by the CSTO.

Amicalement
Armand

Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko says he has agreed with Russian President Vladimir Putin by phone on a "permanent ceasefire" with rebels.

In a statement the Kremlin said a phone conversation had taken place on Wednesday between the two presidents in which their points of view had "coincided significantly" on possible ways to end the crisis.

The Kremlin said Mr Putin had not agreed to the ceasefire himself as Russia was not party to the conflict.

(Now we just have to hope the separtists also agree to it – if they are seen to use this as an opportunity to consolidate forces and gain ground this will just start again…)

Mr Putin had not agreed to the ceasefire himself as Russia was not party to the conflict

…although it would help enormously if he would secure the border and outlaw Russian citizens from going into Ukraine to fight…

Proposed seven point peace plan (seemingly either by Putin or in agreement with Putin and Poroshenko):

> The Ukrainian army and eastern rebels should stop "active offensive operations"

> Ukrainian troops must pull back to a distance where they would be unable to shell population centres (that could be a complete withdrawal from the two regions, or merely something like 10-20km outside of Donetsk))

> International monitoring of the ceasefire (not sure who by)

> No use of military jets against civilians

> "All-for-all" prisoner exchange without preconditions

> Humanitarian corridor for refugees and to deliver aid (provided that is only used to bring aid and not for any other purpose)

> Restoration of destroyed infrastructure (that may take time – as much of it has been trashed from inside as it has been destroyed by shelling from outside)

Again, I think it is essential for this to work that it is not merely seen as an opportunity to consolidate forces and seize larger areas prior to any agreement, and if Russia had been more proactive in preventing border incursions, particularly by Russian citizens, this may have been resolved almost before it began, with very little difference in the result other than the body count.