"HMS Daring " Topic

Stupid question: do the Royal Navy's Daring Class AA Destroyers have any armour at all?

I have been comparing them to the late-WW2 Swiftsure Class of Light Cruisers, and the ships are within about 10% of one another in dimensions and weight… and yet the Swiftsures had a good few inches of armour (plus large gun turrets) but my understanding is that modern RN ships have none.

It would seem logical to me for the Darings to be armoured to protect against (at least) 14.5mm machine gun fire and RPGs – as these are the most likely sort of weapons they are likely to face in the current climate – but, as I have said, my understanding is that this is not the case.

Am I wrong? If not, where is the extra weight of the Darings from in that case? They don't have the large turrets or armoured belts etc of the Swiftsures, but are of roughly similar displacement – the Swiftsures being about 10% longer and about 10% heavier.

I imagine the weapons fit, modern FCS and helicopter decks add considerable weight.

Very few (any?) modern warships are as 'armoured' as WWII ships were, but I suppose that machine gun fire or RPGs are hardly likely to cause catastrophic damage to modern vessels either.

There might be a lining of Kevlar on the hull plating but the armour is the quality point defence weapons fit.

All the radar and computer systems add up to a significant amount of weight.

I believe that the hulls are 'only' 3/4" or 20mm steel plate, not face-hardened. They probably have a kevlar spall liner in places, but modern ships have largely traded armor for stopping incoming before it hits the ship in the first place.

But that 20mm thick hull *is* protection against 14.5mm at ranges over 1000m.

Add the weight of all the micro waves ice cream makers Ipod docks together and they are big part of it. ;-P

Joking aside the additional facilities, bunks not hammocks , cabins not messes etc, which modern ships have are a major part of there increase in size and weight.

Fatman

Will they ever have a HMS Blackadder?

Thanks for all the interesting replies. I wonder how much the armour of the Swiftsures weighed?

Probably not applicable for hi-tech ships like Daring, but I wonder if the RN will consider a return to armour for the likes of the proposed Black Swans – these smaller vessels could end up operating in areas where a swarm attack by speed boats mounting machine guns is not an unlikely occurrence. I don't think such an attack would trouble a WW2-era destroyer too greatly, but could seriously ruin the day for a modern, unarmoured (and very expensive) warship.

Still, I am sure much keener minds than mine have considered all this.

If you went with a thicker hull and superstructure steel, even if it isn't face-hardened you should have some decent protection.

I do agree that any ship that wants to play in the littorals probably needs to be armored to take hits up to 30mm, and maybe even 57mm.

The problem with armoring ships is that you need good welders and may need special conditions to weld, in addition to a steel industry that can make the big, thick plates. I know that the HY80 hull steel needed to be preheated to something like 140degF before it would weld or cut properly, and the old battleship plate was similar.

Imperium et libertas
"Still, I am sure much keener minds than mine have considered all this."

In which case you have more faith in our government than I do.

Fatman

Fatman

Yes – perhaps naοve and foolish of me…

I must admit I am baffled by the types of ship the RN are sending into harm's way in places like the Gulf – fibre-glass hulled mine-sweepers and the like – and I have long felt there is a need to return to something more like the old fashioned gunboat – something between HMS Clyde and the Type-23s, no fancy air-search radars and missile fits, but with armour and guns and a CIWS for defence. Basically, a smallish ship that can take a few hits from small arms / RPGs / 20-30mm(?) and can dish out some old-fashioned punishment. I cannot imagine these would be terribly expensive (certainly compared to a Type-45) so a class of 10-12 would not be ludicrous, and would free up the Type-23s and 45s for other duties.

Do we really need to be chasing pirates and drug smugglers with GBP 1-billion air defence destroyers? I hope the 'Black Swan Sloop of War' project will consider things like this, but pretty much despair of the MoD / British defence policy and procurement.

but would the british public enjoy paying for such luxuries?
and theres no way, in my opinion, you will ever discover whether or not there is armor on a modern destroyer, or any other modern ship
its all very hush hush
my ,ain question is, however, would this point make any difference to the modeller, reading this forum thread on naval models?

When I served in the US Navy as a Missile Fire Control Man, we often thought you could render a modern missile cruiser with Terrier Missiles fore and aft, combat ineffective with a boy scout in a row boat firing just 6 shots from a .22 rifle. If all six shots hit just the right spots on the radars.

A dozen jihadi's armed with RPG's in a couple of speed boats could easily render an Arleigh Burke combat ineffective as well. No danger of of sinking, but disabling the combat system, sure.

yes, but given that the maximum range of your average RPG is only about five hundred meters or so, I believe the phalanx minigun would make their boat look like shredded lettuce before they were able to fire off the second round

I have not followed development of a phalanx. Does it actually have anti-ship capacity? It's a big difference picking a radar signal out of the sky vice trying to pull one out of the sea.

CIWS does have a surface-attack mode, and it apparently uses DU rounds. The problem is that it doesn't have a large ammo load (the entire mount sits on top of the deck, including the ammo drum).

As I understand it, surface-attack mode is pure manual control, targeting via thermal imager.

Sure, an RPG only has a short range, but a RN (or USN, RAN etc) warship cannot simply open fire on any rowing boat / fishing boat that happens to come within 500m.

If we were in an actual shooting war, perhaps, but at the moment? Absolutely not.

You have to assume the enemy are going to be able to get a shot off at you and, in that case, having a bit of armour makes perfect sense.

As to whether or not this thread is relevant to wargamers – I think it is perfectly relevant – how can we model modern actions if we don't know whether a ship can be put out of action by an RPG or if it could shrug off a few hits from a 5" gun.

The keel has been laid for the HMS Blackadder, projected completion date 2019.

"keel has been laid for the HMS Blackadder…" I am not going to repeat that one till I see some corroboration.

Modelling weapons effects on ships.. a lot has been done – justy not a lot that is in open press… however you could look at the accounts of historical actions today.. for example – Falklands, 84mm Carl Gustav vs Corvette.. link