"Italian Crossbowmen during Italian Wars" Topic
10 Posts
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Don Sebastian | 22 Aug 2014 6:26 p.m. PST |
During the Italian Wars, how common would the employment of foot and Mounted crossbowmen by the italian city states still be? And around when did the italian stopped to field crossbowmen? |
Great War Ace | 22 Aug 2014 9:39 p.m. PST |
Over half of an army could be infantry and half of that could be crossbow or bow. Up to half of the cavalry could be mounted crossbow. This could be good up to c. 1560. Italian mercenary armies would have less or even zero crossbow. To the degree that a city state was using its militia would be the factor in how much crossbow or bow could be present…. |
Sobieski | 23 Aug 2014 3:05 a.m. PST |
I understand that firearms had largely replaced crossbows by Pavia, let alone 1560. So I'm told. |
davbenbak | 23 Aug 2014 3:52 a.m. PST |
It was a very interesting time of transition. Many of the professional soldiers were converting to firearms but there was still not the emphasis on mass fire of guns as there had been bow or even crossbows. So while troops armed with firearms were more common during the Italian wars, it doesn't seem like commanders quite know how to use them to full effect. You hear more about the exploits of knights, pikemen and even crossbows. The tactics had not quite kept up with technology at this point. It would not be long before the Spanish perfect the tactic as part of their colunela then tercio formations. So to answer your question not as common as they once had been. I would say less than half of your "ranged fire" troops were armed with crossbows depending on whether or not they were militia by this time. |
pete17 | 23 Aug 2014 4:51 a.m. PST |
Hi, thanks for starting this thread. I inclined to the notion that apart from some exceptions in the early part of the Italian wars the majority of troops with ranged weapons were bunched together with the numbers of firearms increasing as time went on. The Hesperis manuscript, some examples of which can be seen here link shows this and there are others illustrating bowmen, handgunners and crossbowmen all in the same unit. The Osprey book on the handgun, which I thought was quite good however I'm no expert, concludes that handguns were mixed with archers to provide extra punch at short range. This appears to make sense as early handguns had a short range and slow rate of fire so would need some support. Also, the Hesperis manuscript which I think was completed in the late 1460's early 1470's illustrates the Italian tactic of having a shielded front rank supported by troops with various 'shot' weapons with additional support from troops with short pikes and javelins. If troops in Italy did fight this way it would explain why Vitelli's Romagnol pike, Gonzaga'a conversion from crossbow to shot and the appearance of Picard Pikemen were viewed as different enough to comment on . cheers Pete |
Don Sebastian | 23 Aug 2014 8:39 a.m. PST |
Dear Peter, could you tell more about how are the Picard and Romagnol pikemen mentioned, and what was Gonzaga's conversion? |
Phillius | 23 Aug 2014 2:18 p.m. PST |
Montluc's first command in France was in the 1520s(??) and I seem to remember that being a company of French shot. I can't remember the numbers he gave, but the majority were crossbow and the remainder arquebus. The Venetians started training their militia to use the arquebus in the 1480s, and I think there was an edict early in the 16thc to make that compulsory. In the Venetian case, most Terra Ferma city militias would have been crossbow armed. Whereas in Venict itself, militia would have included a lot more bow, for service on the galleys. Hale and Mallett are probably your best reference on this one. Phil |
Phillius | 23 Aug 2014 2:18 p.m. PST |
Sorry, "Military Organization of a Renaissance State' by Hale and Mallett. |
Mako11 | 23 Aug 2014 2:59 p.m. PST |
From what I've read, the crossover point seems to be about 1515, or so. Prior to that, more crossbow than guns, and the opposite, afterwards. Of course, that could vary by force/city-state, and period, but is a reasonable guide. I also think that by about 1525, or so, mostly guns would be fielded by all, with crossbows falling out of favor by then. Not 100% sure on that, but it is the general impression I've been left with by reading various postings and articles. |
Ilodic | 23 Aug 2014 7:03 p.m. PST |
Firearms replaced crossbows as any weapon replaces any other weapon in history…economics. Crossbows were very expensive to make, but quarrels/bolt which they fired were cheap. Firearms were cheap to make, relatively, but expensive to fire…good powder, or powder at all was rare. Once smiths learned it was better to bore out steel, rather than to band it together, firearms became safer to use, and thus more reliable. Improvements in the corning of powder also improved, as the tendency for the components to separate diminished. It is worth noting both weapons were very easy to use, as appose to the long bow, and required little training. Commanders still placed more emphasis on black powder artillery, then small arms, simply b/c it was more reliable as an artillery piece, and had little competition from non-black powder artillery, e.g. catapult, trebuchet, etc. There was definitely a transition, as if you look at early arquebuses and muskets, they have long triggers, much like medieval crossbows. Now, modern crossbows have triggers like modern firearms. (It was not an easy decision for the Swiss to give up their first national weapon. But, as professional soldiers, winning ultimately is what matters.) Below is a link to a book I have recommended several times on TMP, which addresses the use of early firearms. link
ilodic.
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