"Where did average dice go?" Topic

Average dice, where the 1 and 6 are replaced with an extra 3 and 4 to smooth out the extreme results.

These excellent dice seemed to be common in the late 70's and early 80's, but are now not seen so much.

I wonder why they never became more mainstream? Could it be that card play systems reduced their wider use?

I quite like making free rules available and though I like the average dice, I'm not sure how many others have them in their collections.

How many rules systems used average dice? I can only think of WRG v6 (?).

British Grenadier also uses them for British and decent Continental troops movement.

Average dice don't do a very good job of smoothing out the possible scores. 2D6 does it better.

But I think they simply fell out of favour with rules designers.

They're in darkest depths of my dice box :-)

Civitates Bellantes (ancients rules) is fairly recent and uses average dice. Great rules too.

All versions of WRG Ancients and Renaissance use average dice. This includes Warrior, based on WRG 7.

I occasionally use them in rules. Simpler arithemetic than 2D6 while producing similar results.

I first recall these being used in the book "Discovering Wargames" by John Tunstill in the early 70's. It was a matter of adding/removing spots on conventional dice. I don't know if anyone actually made them.

Yes, they used to be, and may still be manufactured. A couple of years ago, I cleared-out most of a gaming store's discounted stock of arabic numeral (green or red) average dice, but left their pip average dice because they looked too much like ordinary dice, so would have been too confusing to use.

I have some from the seventies but they have numbers on not spots…

Most rule writers want their game to be as accessible as possible – average dice are not easy to obtain while many gaming households have d6s handy.

There's always folks in the margin who will walk away rather than acquire some unique but mandatory requirement to play.

We still sell loads of them at shows and online:
link
(5th item down the page)

Doug

They really are an archaism as far as rules design goes. Quite useful in their way, but their brief moment has come and gone many years ago. I'm pleasantly surprised you can still get them.

I was surprised when I saw the Osprey rules "A World Aflame" uses them.

A number of TooFatLardies rule sets use them, or at least enough of them use them that I bought three average dice a few years ago, which was all the store had in stock.

I asked a game store clerk not too long ago if they had any. I had to explain what they were to get a head shake with a scoffing expression from him. I went home, chose an unusual color of D6s (canary yellow) and made my own.
Bob

There is unrest in the dice bag,
There is trouble with the bones.
For the average want more game time,
And the six ignore their moans.

Wasn't that a Rush song?

As boy Wundyr says TFL – Troops Weapons and Tactics and They Couldn't his an Elephant – You couldn't play TCHAE without one. (Troops you'd just need not to assign that competence to any officer). Possibly LFS – haven't got them to hand.

I like them – you don't get the extreme results. Green Up and Red Down was popular – I think its good as you will usually get -1 to +1, the extreme is +/- 3, rather than 5 on d6's

Just read 1 as 3, 6 as 4

Flashman14 probably has the rights of it. But I still have a small collection. Not just the red and green, arabic numeral versions noted above (and these are each different spreads of numbers), but others I've squirreled away from other games. Sometimes mainstream boardgames include specialized dice that can be considered "average" dice, in that they are six-sided cubes with perhaps only three different results possible on each. (E.g., I have some dice from an old, 1980s or 1990s pirate game that show either one, two, or three swords on a side.) I've got average dice that go up to 5 and some with zeros on them. Others that might only have zero, 1, and 2. I'm always thinking about how to include them in home-brewed game rules but as noted, this poses a problem if you intend to distribute the rules beyond your immediate circle. But they are handy tools, in the right circumstances.

If you have access to blank dice (various shapes), you can make your own average dice to suit your needs, too.

Terremment, I think you have too much time on your hands…

Can't you just simulate them by treating a 1 as a 3 and a 6 as a 4?

My friends play Warrior tournaments regularly, and even put on Fast Warrior tournaments. They have to supply the Average Dice, though.
I bet outside of hardcore or former WRG/Warrior players few have them.
I THINK I have a pair or two down in my cellar somewhere. I could probably find them, but I bet the long lost Frontier Chasseurs d'Afrique would show up first.
I know right where they are…

Not just the red and green, arabic numeral versions noted above (and these are each different spreads of numbers),

How can you have different spreads of numbers? That would make them different dice.

but others I've squirreled away from other games. Sometimes mainstream boardgames include specialized dice that can be considered "average" dice, in that they are six-sided cubes with perhaps only three different results possible on each.

An average die (DAV) has values of 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5 on its 6 faces. That's four different values. A die with only 3 possible values is not and cannot be an average die.

Can't you just simulate them by treating a 1 as a 3 and a 6 as a 4?

You can, but that level of mental agility can be tricky for some players!

I have it on good authority (Francis Tresham of Trefoil Games) that the British fad for averaging dice is due to the post-war Labour governments tax on "gambling devices". regular dice suddenly became very expensive, but the law defined "Dice" a little too closely (from the governments point of view, anyway), and averaging dice, not being numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, were not hit with the tax.

An average die causes problems the same way a D20 numbered 0-9 twice causes problems. Too hard to find them in a big bag or box full of dice, and before you know it, you have rolled the wrong type.

Had played a couple of games of DBA with them before my opponent asked why there were two 3's on the dice!

Not deliberate but very embarrassing. They are now in their own little plastic baggy so they don't get mixed up with the rest.

JohnG

rmaker: I recall average dice being more expensive than a standard d6 back in the 70s under a Labour government, so I reckon that's rubbish (sorry to Mr Tresham). I bought my first proper average dice to play the Paragon Gladiator-in-a-biscuit-tin rules.

Just about to play a game that uses dA for movement this afternoon.

Trebian

To Mordor where the shadows lay.

Man, I'd give my left nut if I could get some dice to roll average…

rmaker: I recall average dice being more expensive than a standard d6 back in the 70s under a Labour government, so I reckon that's rubbish (sorry to Mr Tresham).

The taxes in question were immediately post-WW2, late '40's-early '50's.

So those taxes would be before the invention of the dA in the 1960s.

Turns out that a Stamp Duty was imposed on playing cards and dice in 1710/11, and it was apparently not abolished on dice until 1862.

link

A little before the post war Labour government though.

The opposite were extreme dice. Did some as Salute give aways back in the day.

Numbered 1,1,2,5,6,6

Made thousands and had mixed responses to them. Used 'em in several game systems just to reflect results that were anything but average (Fanatics, artillery results etc).

Did D3 dice as well – 1,2,3,1,2,3 Very useful.

John T

I once bought 5 "normal" spotted D6 from a stationery shop (to play Yahtzee with). One of them turned out to have three 4's, two 2's and a 1. Never come across that combination before or since.
My average dice were so well used playing WRG 6th that the numbers wore off and you had to remember what was on the faces…..