"Did any SS war criminals hide out in the Foreign Legion?" Topic

And, if so, were any found out and prosecuted?

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According to the link above, ex-SS soldiers joined the FFL and fought at Dien Bien Phu.

I read in a book on Dien Bien Phu that ex-members of the SS fought in the FFL in that seige/battle. I don't know whether they were criminals though, unless SS membership was a sufficient reason. Don't know that one.

As far as I'm aware Hayseeds, the SS was deemed an illegal and criminal organisation, so – at least in the UK – that would mean all its members were also criminals.

I too have read about ex-SS men fighting in French-Indo China as part of the FFL but have never come across any accounts of them facing prosecution for past crimes. Having said that, I can't say they didn't as I've never put any effort into finding out, if I'm perfectly honest.

That has been said for some time with various sources having opinions that vary greatly. There certainly were Germans in the FFL, before, during[DAK -361st] and after WWII. And yes it is pretty much a fact that there were FFL Germans at DBP … Were they former SS or war criminals ? It depends on who you read, I guess ? Many died in French Indo-China so maybe it became a non-issued if it was at all …

I remember reading a book, about 40 years ago, authored by a man who said that he had been an officer in the SS. When he surrendered, he "lost" his pay book and claimed to be regular army. He then joined the French Foreign Legion where he fought in Vietnam. Unfortunately I no longer remember what the book's title was.

The FFL don`t ask questions, signing up does not however make one immune from prosecution for crimes.

At the end of WW1 huge numbers of Germans, Austro-Hungarians and White Russians displaced, homeless or unable/unwilling to return to civilian life joined the Legion – so many in fact the Legion expanded by 2 additional infantry Regiments and formed 1 and later a 2nd cavalry Regiments.

At the end of the 2nd world war similar numbers of displaced persons seemed to have joined, many were German, it seems highly likely some would be ex-SS men hiding from allied justice. The fact that most probably fought and died in Indo-China is poetic justice really.

Karl, would that book be called "Devil's Guard"? I have a copy knocking about the house somewhere, but I'm afraid I can't remember the name of the author.

Richard, as far as I'm aware, the only question asked by the FFL is if you have committed murder.

That would disqualify a lot of the SS from joining right from the start.

None in here, mein Herr (clicks heels).

Some no doubt did, but I doubt they'd have been able to "maintain" any SS culture.

I've read a few lurid texts, breathlessly describing "noble SS men fighting the communists in Vietnam" and pretty sure that's tripe.

The book Devil's Guard is written by George R. Elford. I have it but you can find it on Amazon.com.

Some time ago read about ex-German soldiers in the FFL, fighting in Algeria or Tunisia. Not sure if they were SS.

As above, the short answer is yes, some ex SS troops fought in the FFL as did ex Heer, Luftwaffe etc.

Whether they were war criminals is anyones guess, although as mentioned above, the SS was defined as a criminal organisation so all its members were by definition criminals. It doesn't mean they all massacred Byelorussian villagers on 'anti partisan' operations or slung babies into ovens in Dachau.

Plenty of ex SS were of course recruited by the allies, one of the more notable being SS Sturmbahnfuhrer Werner von Braun.

I've read some accounts and memoirs of Germans in the FFL too. There is no doubt many joined, and equally no doubt some had a bit of an unsavory past.

Just as intriguing, in one memoir the soldier makes reference on a few occasions to ex-Japanese soldiers fighting amongst the ranks of the Viet-Minh.

After watching Koreans defend Normandy in the movie 'My Way' I can believe just about anything.

Yes, I read "The Devil's Guard", a very good read. However, some have said it is more of a work of "historical fiction" … Regardless, Germans of all backgrounds served in the FFL in Indo-China … I did not know of any ex-IJF soldiers fighting along side the Viet-Minh, however it would not surprise me if there were a few. Also read Bernard Fall's "Street Without Joy", it has a least a chapter on the FFL in Indo-China … also very interesting …

Bernard Fall was of the opinion that the numbers of ex-SS were exaggerated, & that by the time of DBP most of the Germans in the FFL were simply too young to have been SS. (that doesn't exclude the probability that they had been Hitler Youth of course).

Bernard Fall would have known, having been in Indo-China for much of the French war and having served in the Maquis in France against the Germans. I don't have my copy of Douglas Porch's excellent history of the FFL to hand, but seem to recall that he discusses this issue and tends towards Fall's view rather than some of the more lurid accounts.

Is there an element of Allied expediency here?
Why bother pursuing such individuals?
If anyone is going to get shot at whilst defending capitalism from the commie hordes it might as well be ex-Nazis

Well yes, former Hitler Youth MAY certainly have served in the FFL after WWII … And lets do the math. If you were about a 20 year old German soldier in any branch of the Reich's forces in '45 … By the time the French re-occupied Indo-China after WWII, there certainly could have been some former WWII German vets in the FFL. If you were 17-20 in '45, by the time of the DBP battles in '54 you'd be around 28 – 30 … So that is not that old … When I was 30, I was a CPT in the US ARMY and in very good physical condition. Plus had about 7-8 years of experience in the Infantry, deployed worldwide, etc., by then … Now, how many actually were in the FFL after WWII is another question … ? But it's not beyond belief …

It could be possible. There is a modern equilivant in the Russian Vostock Battalion which consisted of ex-Chechen fighters. I wonder if a unit that goes by the same in the Ukraine is the same bunch?

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It could be.

"Well yes, former Hitler Youth MAY certainly have served in the FFL after WWII"

Former Hitler Youth popped up in all sorts of occupations, unsurprising as membership was compulsory for all 'Aryans' below a certain age. One of the more famous ex-HJ being Pope Benedict XVI.

HJ membership did not mean they were also members of 12th SS Panzer Division (HJ).

Good point !

Short answer: Very few, if any.

"Devil's Guard" is not "historical fiction", if you use the standard definition of "historical." It is very much fiction though.

Bernard Fall got it about right.

The most recent and, I think, seminal text is Thoumelin, Pierre (2013) "L'ennemi utile 1946-1954. Des veterans de la Wehrmacht et de la Waffen-SS dans les rangs de la Legion etrangere en Indochine." (Zwickau: Schneider Text.)

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Of the 72,833 Legionnaires who fought in Indochina between 1948 and 1954 about 40% were Germans or Austrians. (pp77-79.) The Legion always had a strong German contingent so it included many who had fled the Nazis and many anti-fascists, especially in the 5th REI which was part of the Indochina garrison. After the end of WWII 4 of the 8 Legion recruitment posts were in Austria and Germany (p.44.) The Legion also recruited from POW camps. (pp.60-72.) Former SS troops were easy to identify because of their tattoos and the French, British and Americans checked them through CROWCASS (Central Registry of War Criminals and Security Suspects). (pp.118-120.)

Former SS men were recruited into the Legion but in very small numbers. Of 390 older German Legionnaires born before 1926 killed in Indochina only 2% were ex-SS, compared to 16% Kriegsmarine, 20% Luftwaffe (mostly paras,)28% infantry and 15% Panzer Truppen. (p.96.) Of 160 younger German Legionnaires born between 1926 and 1929 (who would have been between 16 and 19 in 1945) killed in Indochina 8% were ex-SS, 25% Luftwaffe, 38% infantry and 10% Panzers. (p.98.)

Thoumelin devotes a whole chapter to "La Legion d'Indochine, un repaire pour criminals de guerre?" and concludes that, in the main, it wasn't. Even so former members of notoriously criminal Nazi units such as 2nd SS "Das Reich" responsible for, amongst other atrocities, the murders at d'Oradour-sur-Glane; 16th SS "Reichsfuhrer SS" responsible for atrocities in Italy; and "Herman Goring" responsible for atrocities in Italy and Warsaw; were recruited into the Legion, presumably after very close vetting. (pp.113-127.)

There is also a new book coming out by Paul Martelli who fought with the SS Charlemagne at the ripe old age of 15 and later in Indochina, but not in the Legion, since despite fighting for the Nazis he was French:
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Might be an interesting read or it might be an anti-communist diatribe. Anyway, I've got it on order.

Cheers,
Bertie

Ever see the Wilder film "One, Two, Three"?

"I was just a pastry chef for the SS!"

And finally, while the SS led the way in atrocities, the Wermacht didn't have clean hands.

Bertie – very interesting, thanks for that :-)

It might be worth noting that the declaration of the SS as a criminal organisation did not include those men who had been drafted into it and who had not committed war crimes. How anybody was supposed to tell who had and had not been involved in war crimes is anybody's guess.

However, it is almost certain that some SS men who had committed war crimes served in the FFL.

Jurgen

"Devil's Guard" is not "historical fiction", if you use the standard definition of "historical." It is very much fiction though.

Historical Fiction like Saving Private Ryan, etc. … a story line which takes place/is "based" on actually events … Regardless, that is very good intel, and very interesting, Bertie … and sounds about right and very believable. As opposed to say, what you find in "The Devil's Guard" … which again, is an interesting read … but yes, "historical fiction" … IMO …

However, it is almost certain that some SS men who had committed war crimes served in the FFL.

And yes, that is a true statement Jurgen, even if only 2 or 3 served … as oppossed to much great numbers …

I think it is highly probable. I also don't think it is terribly significant number. Large numbers of SS and other war criminals escaped punishment and went on to live long lives in South America and other places. Many went on to commit more crimes of the same nature.

Quite a few were recruited as spies/agents by the western powers to work against the Soviets and their satellites too.

There was – as far as I can tell – very little justice meted out apart from a few high profile cases. And this pattern seems to have got worse rather than better.

Dear Legion,
Each to his own taste. We are just going to have to differ on this.

You read "Devil's Guard" and thought it was "a very good read." I read it and thought it was Nazi fan-boy tosh that exploits most people's ignorance about the Indochina war and preys on some people's desire to re-write history so that "their" side wins.

"Devil's Guard" is not based on actual events, which disqualifies it, in my view, from the definition of "historical fiction." To illustrate my point for example I don't consider Donna Barr's "Desert Peach" graphic novels to be historical fiction just because they tell the story of Pfirsich Rommel, the Desert Fox's pretty young brother and commander of the Afika Korps' 469th Halftrack Support and Gravedigging Battalion. But whilst I would recommend Barr's books to anyone I wouldn't recommend Elford's at all.

Historical fiction, such as the works of Stephen Pressfield, Alfred Duggan, Mary Renault, Bernard Cornwall and Rosemary Sutcliffe, to name just a few, informs a lay reader and provides a relatively painless introduction to historical fact, (or at least the interpretation of "historical fact" that was current when the author wrote.)This is usually because good fiction authors write a lot better than most amateur or academic historians.

Fictionalised accounts of real historical events such as Stephen Crane's "The Red Badge of Courage" or especially those that the author participated in, such as Cyril Joly's "Take these men" can go even further than a straight historical or autobiographical account because the genre allows the author the liberty to "change names to protect the innocent" and to describe not only the events, but the way that they felt at the time, and in doing so can give a subjective perspective on objective events.

Thus historical fiction provides enlightenment and gives those who do not have the time or pain threshold to wade through a turgid, five volume, footnoted tome an introduction to historical events that they would not otherwise be able to have.

"Devil's Guard" does none of these things. It purports to be history, which it is not, and it misleads rather than informs. It's main problem is that so many people actually think it is based on fact and base their historical judgement on it. "Devil's Guard" is not fact… like the Desert Peach it is a work of fantasy. As far as I am concerned "Devil's Guard's" only saving grace is that if people click on the Amazon page and read the tone of many of the positive reviews, and some of the negative reviews, they might just click the link on the same page to the Bernard Fall, (a historian who could write too,) books and other real books about Indochina and do themselves a big favour by picking one of those instead.

Sorry to be so strident Legion, but Elford's monstrosity is something that I feel deeply about. As I said, it is all a matter of taste and I respect, even if I don't agree with, yours.

Cheers,
Bertie

No problem Bertie … I just found it an enteraining book … didn't say it was historically accurate … I read and studied a lot of military history, in High School and as a Cadet. (and still do) And as a Cadet and in some of my officer training schools/courses (IOBC, IOAC, CAS3, etc.) military history was one of the pletora of subjects … As a Grunt for over a decade in my youth, in 4 Inf Bns, deploying and operating worldwide. I saw some pretty well known battle locations. But I still find movies like Kelly's Heroes, or books like The Devil's Guard and the follow up, Return To Inferno entertaining … And I'm a big Hammer's Slammer fan for Militiary Sci-fi too. Maybe it's a little escapism from a very serious topic and was my career for over a decade. But I also like a more serious take like movies, The Longest Day, A Bridge To Far, etc. … and all the actual historical books, I have read. I had the honor to brief my fellow officers at CAS3 on Rommel's Attacks. And that was required reading by my Bde COL Pete Dawkins in the 101. It's all good … I'm just glad I read about French Indo-China, Normandy, Arnhem, etc. … instead of being there …

Dear Legion,
Ah well, we are in agreement on "Kelly's Heroes" which I always thought should be categorized under "leadership training."

Whenever my police motorbike broke down and the transport sergeant looked at me accusingly, (no doubt thinking that here is another cack handed officer who had broken one of his precious machines,) and asked me what was wrong with it, I would do my very best Oddball and tell him: "I only ride 'em, I don't know what makes them work."

YouTube link

"Have a little faith baby…"

Cheers,
Bertie

The author of the Hammers Slammers books (David Drake?)was a tanker in Vietnam, hes written quite an interesting war diary on his service there.

Ah well, we are in agreement on "Kelly's Heroes" which I always thought should be categorized under "leadership training."

I totally agree !!!!! LOL !!!!

"Oddball: Crazy! I mean like so many positive waves maybe we can't lose! You're on!
"

Richard, David Drake was in an Intel Section of the 11th Armored Cav Rgt in Vietnam … And bounced around in an M113 ACAV, ghqmodels.com/store/n25.html IIRC … not a Tank Commander … but kind'a close link … I commanded a Mech Co. of M113s in the late '80s … in my youth …

John OFM … Sorry to go OT … forgive me …

The OFM has always said that any TMP thread that goes beyond 22.4 replies had already been hijacked at least twice.

Indeed …

Bertie,
Your police bikes constantly breaking down wouldn't have had anything to do with them being designed to carry small, wiry Cantonese cops as opposed to the Sir Redvers Bullers' of this world, would it?

Neil,
Mostly it was due to not turning the petrol feed into the "on" position.
Silly things.
Bertie

Further to the hijacking, this thread has gone on for more than 10 posts on a WW2 discussion board and no one has yet said "have you tried playing Crossfire?"