Don Sebastian | 10 Aug 2014 8:54 a.m. PST |
I just read in here ( link ) that a polish source describes the polish hussars at the 1621 battle of Chocim being able to pierce trough 3-4 ottoman soldiers at once! Is this possible, or a myth? |
vaughan | 10 Aug 2014 9:13 a.m. PST |
Polish lances were long but were also very light and fragile, being hollow. The long panzer (something?) sword maybe. |
Grelber | 10 Aug 2014 10:44 a.m. PST |
My understanding is that lances had pennants not to provide additional color to our battlefields, but to prevent the lance head from going so far into somebody that it couldn't be pulled out as the rider galloped by. Very uncool to be sitting there on your horse, surrounded by enemy footmen and no weapon to fight them with. Aside from that, it kind of sounds like a science project. Would a horse and rider jointly put enough pressure behind a lance point to pierce through several men? Maybe. I think you get too many variables entering into your equation, though. Did anybody have his shield up? Any leather straps in the way? Metal buckles? All the Turks in line, just so? Rider keeping his lance up through all of them? And so on. A French report from their campaign in Dahomey in the 1890s mentions a bullet from the new Lebel rifles, with high velocity, smokeless powder, going through a tree, and successively killing all three warriors behind the tree. The French were duly impressed. Not at all like the Western movie arrangement where somebody leaps in front of their friend/lover/relative/whatever, and "takes the bullet for them," since the black powder Colt .45 didn't have the energy to go through more than one person. Grelber |
daubere | 10 Aug 2014 11:34 a.m. PST |
Very uncool to be sitting there on your horse, surrounded by enemy footmen and no weapon to fight them with. Not too much of a problem for Polish hussars, they were a mobile armoury. However Aside from that, it kind of sounds like a science project. Would a horse and rider jointly put enough pressure behind a lance point to pierce through several men? Half a ton of moving horse and rider probably carry enough weight. Personally though I wouldn't want it all transmitted down a lance, through my arm and into my shoulder. Maybe. I think you get too many variables entering into your equation, though. Did anybody have his shield up? Any leather straps in the way? Metal buckles? All the Turks in line, just so? Rider keeping his lance up through all of them? And so on. The first man skewered would be a dead weight, literally, dragging the lance point down. The second man run through would probably add enough extra weight to drag the rider from his horse unless he let go of the lance, bearing in mind that the hussar still maintains forward momentum with two inert bodies on the end of his lance. I say myth. |
Ivan DBA | 10 Aug 2014 11:37 a.m. PST |
Similar tales are out there about crusader knights spitting Saracens. I think that explanation for the penants is a myth. If that was really a concern, it seems like some kind of cross guard right below the head of the lance would be a much mor effective solution. It's like describing the fullers of a sword as "blood channels"--it's dramatic, but inaccurate. |
Ivan DBA | 10 Aug 2014 11:40 a.m. PST |
It can only have happened all at once, when charging close-packed troops. I think it's quite plausible that a lance might go straight through two ranks of guys in a close formation, if they were unarmored. But the idea of a lancer riding about, spitting one enemy after another, is just silly. Only Conan would be strong enough to do that. |
Balin Shortstuff | 10 Aug 2014 11:55 a.m. PST |
I think skewering 3 on one lance could only happen if the Ottomans obligingly lined up in close order. The hussar lance(kopia) was hollow, but only the leading two thirds. link |
Bernhard Rauch | 10 Aug 2014 7:05 p.m. PST |
It sounds very far fetched. |
Sobieski | 10 Aug 2014 8:17 p.m. PST |
You're doing well if you take out one enemy each with a lance charge (unless routing infantry are your target). The enemy's trying to stick something in you too, and you're traveling pretty dam' fast. The rest is a bit like the not quite impossible story of knocking out a Panzer with a single rifle bullet which pierced an observation port and hit something volatile inside. Yes, it could happen; now go away and bother someone else with ridiculous rules-amendments. |
pancerni2 | 11 Aug 2014 7:08 a.m. PST |
I could understand two maybe three infantry in a packed formation but that would have been a rare occasion and then of course became the stuff of legend…as has been pointed out the lances were hollow and lightweight. They were not intended to last beyond initial contact. If they got stuck or shattered they were dropped. At that point eithe rth hussar retired and retrieved another lance from his retainer or used one of his other weapons. db |
Don Sebastian | 11 Aug 2014 8:39 a.m. PST |
Thank you all for tour answers, guys! So this hussar feat might have been possible in specific circunstances, but very unlikely, right? |
bwanabill | 11 Aug 2014 9:42 a.m. PST |
I remember reading about a British lancer in the Boer War who killed two Boers with one lance thrust. The two Boers were on the same horse trying to escape from the battle and the lancer come up from behind. This was the Battle of Elandslaagte. Of course in that case the two Boers would naturally have been pressed closely against each other, so perhaps it's not a good comparison. It's interesting though. |
Griefbringer | 11 Aug 2014 11:10 a.m. PST |
So this hussar feat might have been possible in specific circunstances, but very unlikely, right? I would presume so. And since it was such a rare occurrence, it might get easily recorded. Of course the Polish Hussar Fanboys will claim that it was an everyday occurrence for the Polish hussars, because of their special skills, tactics, equipment and feathered wings. |
goragrad | 11 Aug 2014 11:15 p.m. PST |
Well, Don Sebastian from that link - 1. The battle of Chocim 1621 – relation of hussar rotemaster (I hope it's a good translation :)) Rudomina. Rudomina commanded his unit in this charge. Auxent (the eyewitness of this battle). They both wrote about 3-4 Ottomans pierced by single blows of hussar lances. 2. The battle of Połonka 1660 (vs Russians) – grand Lithuanian hetman (the main commander) Sapieha. He commanded Lithuanian army in this battle. He wrote to the king about 6 Russian infantrymen pierced by hussar lance. 3. The battle of Cudnów 1660 (vs Russians and Cossakcs) – colonel of Polish cavalry and member of the battle Leszczyński (5 Russians pierced by hussar lance) 4. The battle of Vienna 1683 – hussar comrade Kochowski (2-3 Ottomans pierced by hussar lances) And - Ok, so look at the list of sources only to the battle of Chocim 1621: 1. Potocki (3 Ottomans pierced at once) 2. Auxent (3 – 4 Ottomans pierced at once) 3. Rudomina (3 – 4 Ottomans pierced at once) 4. Marchocki (2 Ottomans pierced at once) 5. Sobieski (3 Ottomans pierced at once) 6. Lubomirski (2-3 Ottomans pierced at once)
All are claimed to be from historical records. Of course without photographs or video/film footage it is all hearsay – just like the bulk of the historical record… Interestingly one of the members chipped in with a similar (not as specific in the details) comment of a Byzantine reference to two men impaled on one lance. Another one of the members noted that hussars braced their lances against their saddles so as to transmit more of the impact to the target. Difficulty would be keeping the lance straight enough to keep it from shattering. Not impossible – I have seen pictures of straw driven into tree trunks. |
Ilodic | 13 Aug 2014 4:48 p.m. PST |
I think if I survived a battle, and was able to in one forward ride, to scrape a couple of cheeks, side of a torso, and perhaps a hand, I might inflate the story to read "I was able to pierce through 4 at once!" Fish stories have been around a long time. ilodic. |
Bill N | 14 Aug 2014 8:49 a.m. PST |
I don't doubt that it happened, but have trouble believing it could be more than a freak occurrence. I have no doubt that the forward momentum of the horse and rider would impart enough force to pierce three men. The problem is that the lance cannot shatter or break, and also the rider has to be able to hold that lance level as weight accumulates on the end. |
goragrad | 14 Aug 2014 11:15 p.m. PST |
Considering the close formations of the employed throughout the time when edged weapons were dominant it is entirely possible for the incidents in question to have occurred at essentially one impact. It is noted in various histories that at times the press of combat was so severe that the dead and wounded couldn't fall (in fact I seem to remember reading accounts of battles where the press was so close that arrows or other projectile weapons penetrated more than one target). A lance thrust into such a mass could penetrate multiple bodies without the need for the wielder to reposition the lance or shift its line. Even a more open formation (say of arquebus, musket, or shorter edged weapons) could see the first victim pushed back into someone close enough behind to let them also be impaled. I really doubt that the incidents were the result of a hussar impaling a target, looking around, seeing another target, riding to it with the first man still on the lance, stabbing the next target, etc. until he 'reached his limit.' Without seeing the complete original accounts of the actions where these occurred, one presumes that most were unit after action reports and that the incidents cited were given as details in a larger report. Something a bit out of the ordinary, but not unknown. Except for the quote of the report to the king of six Russians on one lance – that would be a real exception that could be mentioned by an army commander in his report. At least one of the reports speaks of the event being witnessed, taking it out of the 'fish story' category, although someone could have been making his buddy look good. I do agree Illodic that personal accounts can be questionable – that is why there are gun cameras and why on the ground verification often shows pilot reports of damage to be wildly inflated. Although these instances are more mistaken analysis rather than deliberate stretching of the truth. Now let's see if this reply gets another ignore and stifle… |
goragrad | 14 Aug 2014 11:28 p.m. PST |
This discussion also occurred over at Myarmoury.com where a citation from Plutarch was quoted from his history of the battle of Carrhae where Parthian cataphracts also were able to impale more than one man with a lance. link |
OSchmidt | 18 Aug 2014 11:29 a.m. PST |
Yes, and everyone knows that you can impale three Panzer II's on a saber also! |