"So I bought the rules..." Topic

50mm frontages? ?

Why do game designers futz with established conventions? Really, what is the logic?

Frankly, it just strikes me as inconsiderate.

And yes, I can use sabot bases for all my various 15mm armies but that's ugly. If I wanted ugly I'd shove counters around on a hex map.

Just use what your figures are already based as. Precious few rules cannot work if both armies follow the same convention.

Which is kind of my point, the non-conventional base size serves no actual purpose other than to be different, er, difficult.

No, it's not a world shattering problem but it's the kind of arbitrariness that designers should discipline themselves to avoid.

If you look at Age of Reason rules carefully you will see that half or more of the beautifully painted figures are not based properly for the rules. Perhaps this is a subtle way of showing that they will work with any system.

My own 25/28mm AWI armies are based on 2" x 1" bases for 2 reasons. I can comfortably fit 3 figures on them without any storage damage and I can cut my own bases out of bass wood with very little waste.
No magic here but I have yet to find any rules they will not work with.

What does puzzle me is the seeming arbitrariness of basing for some 15mm rules. Where did they come up with such as 1-1/8" x 13/16"?

Yes it can be a pain. If the rules add that "it's not that important" type comment then all is well. With a new or different base size a crystal ball would be a great help.
1.Will I use these rules for long time?
2. Is this much better than what I am presently using?

If either is "yes" then maybe a re-base might be considered.

Do consider 1.That the popular base frontage of 40mm was once a new idea in ancients brought in by Phil Barker.
2. Many sculptors will not keep to sizes such as 15mm or 25mm. Thus bigger bases are needed.

As a small footnote PP uses only 3 base sizes for all 14 sets of rules. 3x3cm for foot, 3x4 for mounted and guns, 4x4 for specials. This has started to gain some logical traction since the 1981 introduction.

This could be a good discussion.

martin

I do not think it ever necessary to rebase your army. The important thing is that your army should look like you think represents the way it looked in history. Some wise wargamer once said: "Your army should look and behave conform your personal prejudices about it". But of course we know how our armies should look and build them that way. US Marines will not march shoulder to shoulder through the jungle of Guadalcanal, Roman legionaires will not be in a skirmish formation and German musketeers during the Thirty Years War will not like to be in the same kind of formation as their pikemen protecting them are (with the apostles filled with gunpowder who needs a burning match close by ;-)). Therefore the distance between miniatures is (about) a given.
The number of miniatures on a base may be important (some rules say so, some rules don't). If so, you can simply use your own army and count figures. With 50mm frontages and (let's say) 20mm bases you just use five bases against your opponent's two. Or you use 6 of your 15mm base and experiment on the result (perhaps your opponent uses one less figure ?). Rules should not be a law, just an indication. It would be a pity to remove those "old" bases that were carefully made just because an otherwise interesting set of rules says so. And not buying a new set of rules that includes very clever and nice formulated new ideas because the basing does not fit your existing army is also a pity. So stick to the best of two worlds…

PP uses 3x4 for guns? Oh, crap! All of mine are based on 4x4. No wonder I lose so many games! My figures are all based wrong.s

While the DBX 40mm frontage may work acceptably for Ancients in 15mm, the 60mm standard no longer works for 25/28mm figures in many cases.

My 15mm AWI are all based in 1" x 3/4" bases and work just fine with the various AWI rules I play.

My Peter Pig based Sudan figures have no problem with Field of Battle or Colonial Adventures.

My 40mm figures are all based on 1" fender washers, and, you guessed it…

If the rules absolutely demand, and will not work without one particular, narrowly defined basing system, then I am unlikely to play those rules.

Worth noting is that as recently as 2.2 DBA had NO REQUIRED basing system. The 40mm frontage was described as "recomended". Check your rulebook if you don't believe it. I can vouch from experience that the game played fine with figures based differently.

Oh, and 50mm frontages are lovely to play with in 15mm. My favorite 15mm rules use 50mmx25mm elements.

Seeing now that you posted this to the Mighty Armies board, I assume those are the rules to which you refer.

The fifty M&M frontage is a carry over from the original Mongoose version of the game which came as boxed sets including army, rules and bases. The game at that time had no provisions for making your own army lists, and was sold as self contained modules.

I can assure you that the game will play just fine with 40mm frontages, or any other you care to use.

What does puzzle me is the seeming arbitrariness of basing for some 15mm rules. Where did they come up with such as 1-1/8" x 13/16"?

It's a metric to imperial conversion.

1-1/8" is 30mm 13/16" is 20mm.

For shame! Everyone knows basing is in Metric and movement in inches, its the standard laws of gaming rule design ;)
What about multiples of to make the desired bases the old WHA were al single base rd and other rules work just fine with a bunch formed up close to the stated base size of other rules (ok slower to maneuver about but very adaptable) worth trying maybe?
Cheers

Could you define "established conventions"?

Then there are the games where the same figure might be on 20mm or 25mm square base depending on whether you are deploying it in ranks and files or in loose skirmish formation. Yes, I have actually played games where that was the standard.

Logic? That certainly hasn't been applied across games, let alone across the hobby.

I had to laugh a bit with your unhappiness with 50mm frontages with your 15mm figures.

I imagine it all depends on what you're use to….

The thing about basing is as long as everyone bases the same and it is 'close' to the game design [1 inch, 1 1/8 inch, 1 1/2 inch 13/16 of an inch] there really isn't any issue.

I certainly wouldn't rebase for such differences in measurement. With big differences, I just change the scale. Much easier than rebasing. It is an issue of different folks in your group are basing things differently… But often even that can be figured out.

Mighty Armies plays fine with different bsing schemes as long as both sides have the same frontages. And it's well worth digging into this game

Thanks for the comments guys :)

On page 8 of the rulebook it says as long as the two sides have the same base size, it does not matter… and honestly, we play against different bases sizes all the time.

Rebel Mike
Rebelminis.com

FWIW 50mm frontages are perfect for fitting two of Irregular's 6mm fantasy bases side-by-side. I spent the weekend basing high elves and humans, so this comes from recent experience.

OTOH, I'm converting another fantasy project to MA and have to work with assorted frontages, but it's not insolvable.

The problem with varying base sizes is that when two players meet up for a game – they can't play unless they have by luck used the same basing scheme. Hence standards to help gamers and the community in general.

Why Mighty Armies stuck with 50mm while all most every other game uses 40mm (for 15mm) is a mystery.

By the way the 60mm (25mm) frontages still work for most 28mm. Sometimes its best to mount only three foot figures per base (instead of 4) or only 2 mounted (though the current Perry Brother line works fine on 60mm frontages 3 per (its the mounting system included in the box).

TomT

I was basing all my Mighty Armies 15s onto DBX baseing but just decided to stick to the 25X50 basing scheme as it fits most cavalry as well. Since the figure count is so light and its the only fantasy game I play in 15mm, I'm not minding at all. My issue was building armies for Chipco's Fantasy Rules. 40mm squares just don't aesthetically do it for me.
-Edgar

Hi, I basically ignored the 50mm basing. I simply had too many figs already based for WRG sized stands in 15mm. I do agree that it could cause me some problems if I ever played in a a Tourney at Nashcon. However, that is unlikely to happen. My bigger hurdle was to finally start ditching HOTT basing and go with mainly 40x20mm size stands for foot.

MA is a great game. I do wish it would start seeing some more love from Mike though. New forum….cough….cough!

Thanks,

John

Yeah that would be great. I'd love to see Mighty Armies become the gaming standard.

[q]50mm frontages? Bleeped text?
Why do game designers futz with established conventions[/q]

Necro-threading here a bit but it was an established base convention when Mongoose started the game – 50x25 and 50x50 were and are standard GW base sizes and I suspect people involved may have had spares floating around to use for the very first trials in-house, so that's what went out.

While the game was similar to HOTT, I do not think the target market was the DBx or HOTT player and the game came out in self contained boxes and blisters before Rebel took over – so considerations of fitting the established historical gamer conventions didn't come into it.

As others have pointed out, so long as base frontages are all the same it works fine, so long as the 2:1 ratio is kept it works perfectly but that said I have played games with mixed heavy and medium infantry bases for FoG and DBx and the 15 vs 20mm depth made no significant difference

This is why I designed my own rules (Oh God! Anything But a Six!" to work with any basing scheme, even cross basing schemes (one army one basing scheme and the other on another).

I'll add that most of the time, it never actually matters that much. :)

Sorry about the weird formatting – it looked fine just after I posted and I think I must have gone back in to tweak a typo and wreck the formatting…

Lol, no worries!

RebelMike
Rebelminis.com