"Dutch infantry" Topic

I am busy painting up some Dutch infantry for the period of 1809. However I have been unable to determine the colour of the pompom on the shako. Did they follow the French style with s different colour for each company? any help appreciated

I have had a quick look at George Street & Karim van Overmeire's book. They say that in September 1809 regs stated red for 1st battalion and dark blue for second, with company number in the centre. Before this they say pompoms were in an unknown company colour. Voltigeurs had green "carrot" pompoms, grenadiers wore bearskins, or shakos with red pompom.

The illustrations in the book by Knotel and Papandrecht show pompoms in the company facing colour for fusiliers, just to confuse matters.

So take your pick. If it's useful to distinguish between 1st and 2nd battalions I would go along with the 1809 regs – otherwise I would take a lead from the illustrators and use facing colour for all companies.

cheers

Matthewgreen; not totally correct.
In an order of September 21st 1809 is stated, that the 6th regiment will use the colouring of the pompom as was already used by the 8th regiment which is red for the 1st and darkblue for the 2nd battalion and company number in the middle.
Nowhere is stated that this is used by the other regiments who can use the older system of different coloured pompons for each company.
As the 21st of september is in the middle of the campaign season, I suppose that even the 6th would receive its new colouring at the end of 1809.
How the different colouring of the companies was before that, is not known.

At the risk of being a complete loser and deviating from the topic at hand, does anyone have any sources that indicate Dutch Infantry Superior Officer's plumes? I have seen plenty of source material on company grade officers, and they seem to wear pompoms or carrots that match those worn by the soldiers they command. I am specifically seeking to finish up my 2nd and 4th Dutch converged regiment in Spain at the time of Talavera, if that helps. Any insights, especially specific references, would be really appreciated.

Thanks, Jarhead

jarhead the same book (and note from Duc de Limbourg that this is not always accurate) suggests that officers' plumes are white tipped with company facing colour. But they also say that grenadier officers "are often shown with" red plumes. There is an illustration from 1806-07 (Suhr Borthers) of one officer of 8th regt with shako and white plume tipped in facing colour (violet), one from 7th regt with bicoren and plume entirely in facing colour (yellow) and one with shako and pompom of white with red spot.

The book suggests that the men had white plumes for full dress, but these were probably discontinued after 1807, and that plumes were replaced by pompoms on campaign. This may have applied to officers, as the Knotel illustration indeed shows, as do your sources. There is no suggestion that senior regimental officers are different in respect of headwear than more junior ones…but they may well have opted for something showier.

The book suggests that officers often wore a silver-trimmed bicorne on campaign with regimental colour pompom.

I am not an authority on this – I just happen to have the book because I know one of the authors!

it occurs to me that standard company pompom colours didn't come in for the French until 1812 – so the situation of the Dutch in 1809 is quite similar to the French at the time. Looking at the illustrations, it seems that there was a lot of variation, as with the French. Different colours, white with a spot, and so on.

Which gives you a lot of licence to following your visual preferences and convenience. Do you want to distinguish the different battalions, and/or companies? For my 1809 French, I tend to use the 1812 company colours because it just more convenient that way.

Jarhead,
have looked in "de uniformen van de Nederlandsche Zee- en Landmacht" by Ten Raa but couldn't find a mentioning about the wearing of pompons/colour etc by senior officers.

Also in "de uniformen van het nederlandse leger 1795-1810 -Batavian Republic and Kingdom of holland" no description is given about senior officers.

When you look at the suhr plates link
fourth row, left plate, it shows on the right a luitenant of the 7th regiment with a plume in the facing colour, on the left an adjutant of the 8th with white plume and facing colour top.In the middle the officers has lacing around the shako which, according to regulations, should be.

Almost no plates show different colouring of pompoms, mostly the pompom is of facing colour. An exeption is the 6th in the Suhr plates which is given as second battalion with pompom in red with white middel. The grenadiers (in the same row) have a red and white plume. Also in the 5th row again white and red; could it be that the first batttalion had full coloured plumes/pompoms and the second battalion partly white/partly facing colour. I don't know.

sorry, couldn't give more info

and
- infantry should have hair queed and powdered
- voltigeurs white collar
- voltigeurs front plume
etc.
Sometimes this fits, sometiimes according to the plates, not.

All, this is greatly appreciated and very consistent with the maddenly contradictory research I have done to date. The answer in terms of what the superior officers did in the 2nd and 4th Dutch Regts in Spain to distinguish themselves remains elusive. I suspect that it likely followed a French convention, but have never been able to locate anything that could prove it. I guess I will take a conjectural approach and give them white center plumes. It doesn't scratch the itch for the button counter within me, but it works.

Thanks, Jarhead.