Extra Crispy | 03 Aug 2014 8:41 a.m. PST |
I know Viking ships were essentially transport: land on the coast then march to the battle. Did Vikings ever fight ship to ship, even against themselves? I assume it would be all grapple and board as they did not carry any ordinance. Could a Viking ship ram? I assume not but am happy to be enlightened. |
ChrisBrantley | 03 Aug 2014 9:03 a.m. PST |
Wiki on the Viking naval battle of Svolder link |
boudin noir | 03 Aug 2014 10:08 a.m. PST |
There are references in various Icelandic sagas (e.g. Njal's Saga)to ship-to-ship fighting, i.e. boarding actions. |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 03 Aug 2014 11:02 a.m. PST |
Then you have Erik's "Ironbeard" (from heroics & ros site): "Earl Eirik had a large ship of war which he used upon his viking expeditions; and there was an iron beard or comb above on both sides of the stem, and below it a thick iron plate as broad as the combs, which went down quite to the gunnel." The Beard appears to be a device to prevent the enemy from boarding. It would fit over the prow in place of the figurehead and hang down in front of it; this means that the prow itself must have braced the iron plate beard from behind. The comb or ‘moustache' would most likely be a row (or rows) of long nails/spikes driven into the wood pointing slightly downward, their purpose would be to prevent the enemy from climbing over the iron plate beard. |
morrigan | 03 Aug 2014 4:08 p.m. PST |
Further to PAR's post, there are ships and a link to a set of rules on the H&R site link |
Great War Ace | 03 Aug 2014 4:35 p.m. PST |
This is probably my favorite image of Viking warfare ship-to-ship link |
Great War Ace | 03 Aug 2014 4:38 p.m. PST |
This is probably my favorite image of Viking warfare ship-to-ship
|
Ron W DuBray | 03 Aug 2014 6:23 p.m. PST |
They would lash the ships together to make large fighting platforms and move them together and fight like they did on land. this form of sea war ended when high Cogs started being built in the south and replaced long boats. longboats built to be light and fast would come apart if they rammed something.
|
screw u | 03 Aug 2014 8:51 p.m. PST |
The Vikings would lash their ships together in line abreast. As the lines closed the would engage with archers and slingers. The objective was to engage in a prow to prow close quarters boarding action, being assigned to the prow was considered a great honor. Maneuver of individual ships was impossible, a ship has to cut itself loose to either pursue or withdraw. As pointed out Viking ships had no rams, neither did they have the reinforced bows necessary for ramming. The also didn't carry ballistas or catapults. In essence a Viking sea battle, and actually that's a misnomer, the fights most likely took place in fjords or harbors, would have looked pretty much like a Viking mêlée. |
Sundance | 03 Aug 2014 8:54 p.m. PST |
The short answer – yes they did. Among other tactics, they would lash their ships together into a floating platform and attack opposing fleet from that base. |
goragrad | 03 Aug 2014 11:10 p.m. PST |
Must admit that I had forgotten the name of the battle but my first though as well on seeing the topic was of King Olaf and the Long Serpent. Rather interesting that all of the commentary (and the picture) reference elements of that battle and the tactics therein used. I like that picture as well, but have a couple of caveats – the Long Serpent was described as being significantly higher (and overall larger) than other longships and the picture looks more like an open battle. In the wiki linked it was stated that the Long Serpent was lashed in the center of the defensive line formation. |
wminsing | 04 Aug 2014 8:58 a.m. PST |
The Anglo-Saxons actually did fight a couple of naval battles against Vikings, under King Alfred and perhaps earlier. Same sort of fighting as outlined above; in closed waters, ships lashed together and all the fighting was hand-to-hand. At least one of the battles *turned into* a land battle when the tide went out and all of the ships became beached! -Will |
Great War Ace | 04 Aug 2014 10:56 a.m. PST |
Are BOTH sides using lashed together ships? How is that possible? Wouldn't the attackers have to maneuver? This would require ships that are not lashed together. Much later, at Sluys (1340), the French fleet is standing on the defensive lashed/chained together, and the English fleet operates in three-ship units, maneuvering to attack the French flanks…. |
screw u | 04 Aug 2014 4:44 p.m. PST |
The whole idea was to fight a land battle at sea. So the two sides would both be lashed together in rough line abreast. The Viking ideal was to close with the enemy and then hack away at anything not killed by the archers. The ships themselves were seen as platforms, not weapons systems. I guess that lashing the together was sort of a sea going shield wall. I guess that while the Vikings had a flair for ship design and open sea navigation, not so much for naval warfare. Their system played to their strength, individual close combat. Had they ever met the Byzantines at sea, well, it wouldn't have been pretty. |
Great War Ace | 05 Aug 2014 7:42 a.m. PST |
Sort of an enormous holmgang, then. Ritualized combat. There is no tactical "edge" being sought, or tactical efficiency. It is intended to artificially place both sides within inescapable reach of each other so that a decisive battle can be fought…. |
Lewisgunner | 08 Aug 2014 10:20 a.m. PST |
Actually there is tactical edge because they took trouble to get the combined arms bit right. First you used bows, then thrown spears, then boarded with the archers still picking opponents off. In order to board successfully you would have to clear a space on the opposing ship and then get one really good fighter aboard who would be tasked with keeping the opponents back whilst the rest of vthe boarding party jumped across. Once you boarded you had to keep together as a team and avoid being isolated. Also, given that the top guys are wearing mail they would have to be careful to avoid falling in. |
Griefbringer | 09 Aug 2014 5:22 a.m. PST |
Earlier today I read a description of a ship engagement that took place between Danish raiders and Anglo-Saxon navy in 896. The Danes had been raiding along the English coast and were located in a river estuary when the Anglo-Saxon ships show up and block the mouth of the river. As they were outnumbered, the Danes ended up trying to break past their opponents in an attempt to reach the open seas. This type of a scenario could make for an interesting game, with the blocking force trying to attack the raiders with missile weapons and boarding actions, while the raiders return missiles, try to repel boarders and manoeuvre past the blocking force. Presence of river banks and odd island or sand bank in the river itself might result in careless captains having their ship beached. This could work especially as a multi-player game, with each player getting his own ship to command (the blocking force should have more ships, to encourage the raiders from getting stuck). |
Adrian66 | 17 Aug 2014 10:35 a.m. PST |
Regardless of the technological gap between Byzantine and Viking vessels, sea warfare still required closing to board. The Viking ships were very nimble and full of warrior while Byzantine ships were less nimble and had a mix of soldiers, sailors and slaves. If the Vikings got a foothold then its a fair fight. |
Great War Ace | 17 Aug 2014 12:32 p.m. PST |
I agree with that, "Adrian". Any "Greek" ship that got boarded was more than likely toast. But getting past the "Greek fire" and being able to maneuver for boarding in the first place would be the tricky part for the "Vikings". I don't remember the details of the "Viking" (Rus) sieges of Constantinople anymore, but iirc, they were defeated by higher technology and "Greek trickiness" rather than by fighting hand to hand, which would have given the victory to the "Vikings" instead…. |
latto6plus2 | 18 Aug 2014 2:47 a.m. PST |
Theres an episode in the Orkney Saga (I think)where christian vikings meet a much higher saracen ship while on their way to crusade. Its size baffles their attempts to board until they haul alongside and hack their way in through the hull with axes, before working their way to the deck from the inside. |
Adrian66 | 18 Aug 2014 6:55 a.m. PST |
GWA – "Greek trickiness" wouldn't have involved paying them to go away would it? Everybody else found it worked. Or in the the case of the Byzantines, hire them. |
Great War Ace | 18 Aug 2014 7:18 a.m. PST |
Yes, and hiring enemies to attack them "back home", or using their own military to cut off the Vikings from their ability to forage, and any other indirect way of waging war before resorting to pitched battle…. |