"So how far can you move in 10 seconds?" Topic

Backpack, gun and all the junk a modern infantry man is supposed to lug around.

Cautiously advancing when I'n being aware but not in direct contact with the enemy?

Hauling *** to get from one place to another while bullets are flying?

Let's assume pretty flat ground in both cases.

What about lightly equipped insurgent types?

When in track I could do 100 yds in 12 seconds.

Probably slow that down to 50-75 yds for terrain and equipment.

About 8 steps ;)

As I mentioned on the thread about the hit chances, you're not moving nearly as fast as you think/hope you are, and you're probably better off shuffling and returning fire than trying to 'sprint' somewhere.

First off, I'll let you know I'm not going to include the pack, because if you're in contact you drop the pack ASAP (I'm sure everyone's heard the horror stories of the 60-pound packs). But you've still got:
-The vest and plates are about 40 pounds.
-Uniform, boots, helmet, eyepro, call it 5 pounds.
-weapon(s), ammo, and grenades (for yourself), call it 15 to 25 pounds.
-Assorted sundries: first aid kit, hand-held GPS, intra-squad radio and batteries, maybe a small VHF/UHF (like the AN/PRC-148 MBITR), NVGs, lotsa batteries for all that, maps, notebooks, Camelbak (and maybe still carrying a couple canteens; water is heavy). Another 5-10 pounds.

I'm sure I'm forgetting something (don't forget, we dropped the pack, so don't beat me up about all the crap that would be in there), but let's call it bodyweight + 75 pounds. So 'sprinting' is a relative term.

I'd say most guys will get maybe 15 or 20 yards. Before folks start beating me up for being old, fat, and slow (which are all true now, mind you), at the time I was young, in pretty good shape, and ran three miles in 19 minutes (in shorts and Jimmies).

I imagine you're trying to figure out how far a guy can move in a turn; for what it's worth, I know that in the US Army and Marine Corps grunts (via their training) aren't really focusing on how far they can go, they're focusing on limiting exposure, i.e., limiting how long the enemy can see you or at least how long you're providing a consistent target to him.

There's a literally a 'ditty' used: "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down." So the whole concept is to cover as much ground as you can in the length of the ditty (which is about four or five seconds), then be out of LOS (via cover/concealment) or change your profile (by being prone). So, for what it's worth, ten seconds of presenting yourself to the enemy is about twice as long as you'd like/are trained to.

Even falling back you're taught to limit your exposure in a similar fashion, so I could really only imagine a guy running for ten seconds if he's running for his life, and at that point he's probably dropped everything but a weapon and a couple magazines.

On a side note, I've talked to quite a number of USMC Vietnam vets, and almost to a man they mentioned that once the shooting started they dropped all their gear but a their rifle, a couple frags, and as many magazines as they could stuff in their cargo pockets. Guys stayed with the packs to bring them up in case of good news, or the location served as a rally point if things went not so well. Usually the RTO stayed back there due to 1) him being relatively immobile (with the PRC-25 at that time) and 2) the RTO being a priority enemy target. Don't beat up on me regarding this, I wasn't there, I'm only passing on what I'd heard.

V/R,
Jack

My definition of "cautious advance" means that enemy contact is anticipated and appropriate caution is being taken, so I say about 10 yards.

@Jack: I assume they still teach a 3-5 second rush in bounding overwatch movement.

Even allowing for (sufficient) adrenaline making a mockery of Olympic records, "I'm up, they see me, I'm down" limits your motion to 10-15m MAX. Being lighter would make you move closer to 15m, packing a heavy load like a couple boxes of 7.62NATO in addition to your individual load you're probably looking at 10m or even less.

Not nearly as far as I could when I was 18.

Far enough to get to the kitchen get a bag of Cheetos and back to the couch in time to watch you all doing it all on TV boy you look real slow toting all that gear and guns and things..)

Kyote and Zargon win the thread :)

79th – I got out 10 years ago, but yes, 3-5 seconds. It's funny because the question is, 'how far?' I don't really know because we didn't think in terms of distance, just time. I will say you tend to go short rather than long once you understand that one more second might just be the one for him to get his weapon on you.

Kyote – You'd sure be quicker on your scooter, plus all the cool points ;)

Zargon – "…on TV boy you look real slow toting all that gear and guns and things." This was exactly the point I was trying to make on another thread regarding someone shooting at a moving target at 100 yards. The target may think he's moving fast, but from the shooter's perspective he looks like he walking on the moon. And at 100 yards you don't even have to adjust sights, that rounds still rising and will be there before his foot hits the deck.

It's all about exposure time. Sorry Weasel, I didn't mean to turn this into a replay of that other thread…

V/R,
Jack

Nah, all good. These discussions are always interesting.
It's funny, if you send "movement" to some number between 4 and 8 inches, nobody has anything to say, but if you ask about what that actually means, suddenly it gets exciting.

Besides, I'm sure you can pack a machine gun on that scooter. Might give more speed downhill too, just fire it backwards and watch him go :)

It raises an interesting point though (and incidentally validates one of my design decisions in Five Men): Troops in the "open" in a wargame are likely on their bellies, hugging dirt. Getting "caught" in hte open is a question of reaction fire (and the considerable difficulty in doing so).

The idea in many war games that troops are wandering about upright if they aren't in cover is not really a good one.

Well, in the last 10 seconds I haven't moved at all!

JohnG

Right now … it takes me at least 4-5 seconds to just stand up !

GURPS has a normal human moving about 5 yards in a second (unloaded), so 50 yards in 10. In combat that means you are dead before getting the 50 yards. Encumberance can lower the speed down to 0, lets go with -3 for a total of 20 yards.

All that is doing nothing but move, no serious attempt at looking around, etc…

I agree with the essence of Just Jack analysis. It is consistent with training doctrine and the typical load out of a modern western soldier. I would add that something to shelter behind is probably the governing factor. Although you could probably make 15 meters in the open, I think most folks would opt for a shorter dash if cover existed at a shorter range than the 15 meters. Charlie Company has you designate moving at a Combat pace, Patrol pace, or March pace with your combat effectiveness, defensive adjustments, and distance travelled being proportional. If you wanted to assume a bit of randomness representing cover, for a modern soldier in combat armor with normal personal gear how about (with unarmored guerillas getting an extra 1D6 due to the increased mobility they enjoy with lighter kit):

Stationary prone – 0 meters; benefit of cover first action; enemy receives firing bonus for each subsequent action that the troop stays in the same position (assuming his is spotted and not in a defiladed position)

Bound – 9 + 1D6 meters for a bounding move supported by a battle buddy providing covering suppressive fire (mover cannot fire, but receives benefit of cover)

Crawl – 1D6 meters for a low crawl (mover cannot fire, but receives benefit of improved cover); 3+1D6 meters for high crawl (mover cannot fire, but receives benefit of cover)

Patrol – 10 meters (troop upright, scanning his lane, and able to engage during the action or dive to better cover; no cover benefit during this action)

Trot (Fast Advance) – 18 + 2D6 meters for a trooper hustling along upright and ready to dive to cover or assume a position to engage during their next action (Trooper cannot fire and does not receive cover benefit)

Sprinting through Terrain – 30 + 5D6 meters (Trooper upright and running as fast as he can with his gear, trying to avoid tripping over battlefield obstacles, with occasional zigzags, detours, and leaps over piles of debris. Sprinter can end action with dive to Cover; no cover benefit during action; maybe even a fire bonus for the enemy if he is view during most of this run).

Lost Pict

It is a very interesting thread ,Real life is very very hard to portray on the table top.
You nailed the technique which was used even for bounding overwatch or if supported by suppressive fire after all it takes is one goober having a good day to ruin yours. I think the reason it is abstracted is because in anything larger then say squad sized games not abstracting the move distance slows down game play. Remember back in the day when it would take a whole weekend or longer to finnish a big game? Kids today don't have that patience and dedication. Yes we were exhuasted but we were also happy campers you got to Know the guys you played with really well. I kind of miss the Bad food long hours (where it was not uncommon for the LGS to let you stay after hours esp if they were playing)you and your buddies huddled over hushed plans for a game of Microarmour or siegcrige,GQs,T2K or the Morrow project,Gettysburg,Ogre or Car Wars Those were the days….

How far I can move in 10 seconds is *not* how far I can move every 10 seconds all day long, so I wouldn't make a "best case" the standard for the entire game, every turn.

I can go just a little bit further in 10 seconds if there's a cheeseburger at the end.

This is what I love about TMP. I get to speculate on something I couldn't do…
I agree with JustJack.

Pat

Mikey,

I came to wargaming later in life (about five years ago), so I must confess to having missed the 'youthful days of spending an entire weekend on a single game' phenomenon, though I certainly understand the sentiment. Nowadays I just don't have the time or patience, so I'm quite content with streamlined mechanisms that abstract out nearly all of what you would have to take into account otherwise on the tabletop.

There is a discussion of this going on here:
TMP link

V/R,
Jack

If bullets are flying, anyone who tries moving for 10 seconds at anything other than a crawl is going to end up with a lot of little holes in them.

If moving cautiously, anything beween 0 and 15metres would be about normal but, in these situations, distance moved is not very important; what is important is position.

Lightly equipped insurgents are probably not going to move any faster as combat speed, as different from deployment speed, is not really related to the weight carried but to the situation.

haywire,

I would like to see you do 50-75m in the conditions described; actually, I would not, as evacuating casualties is never enjoyable.

However, there are always exceptions:
link

Mind you, the Taliban tend to be poor shots.

Jurgen

Mind you, the Taliban tend to be poor shots.

That seems to be the general consensus for them and many in SWA, the ME and Africa … fortunatly ! But as we all know only one man is faster than a speeding bullet ! Maybe two …

Right now … it takes me at least 4-5 seconds to just stand up !

Me, too, mostly because the damn BP meds make me gray out if I try to stand up faster than that!

Welcome to the world of being an

YouTube link

Do that for three hundred meters and you can barely move when you are done during a hot humid day.

I'd think the running and dropping are a damn site easier than the getting up, especially wearing body armour!

WRG had a special move rate called skirmish, which represented this tactical movement, it gave a to hit modifier by was four times slower than a normal attack.

Actualy Milities the dropping is where you get hurt. I have known a lot of guys whoi landed on something they didnt notice until it is tpo late. Couple even who plowed into ant hills.

When I was in the Artmy, we trained not to go any particular distance, buit to move from covered bit to covered bit. After a bit guys start moving a bit farther because they are worn out from getting up and down. 300 yoards is a marathon. Or seems like it.

Dragon gunner, one fine afternoon they ran us through an obstlicle course in BDUs. Soft caps no gear nothing like that. Took the whole platoon about 15 minutes to do it. Breathing hard because we worked at it, but nobodsy in bad shape.

The we went to MOPP4 and did it again. 45 minutes later and we all thought we where going to die befoire we finished. And it wasnt even a hot day. We probably would have had a couple of heat casualtoies it it had been hot.

Owen

I've heard of soldiers unexpectedly diving into cow and dog poo, but ants, ouch, that's got to hurt! I wasn't thinking so much about injuries, just the physical effort of having to push yourself off the ground repeatedly, wearing 60 plus odd pounds of kit. I stupidly tried short rushes, wearing ordinary clothes, in the summer heat and found the constant overcoming of inertia, after the briefest of pauses, energy draining.

@Badger22

I forgot to add the build up to that moment of humping ruck all day. It was a rare day when we were just trucked to the objective.

@Milites

I have landed on a small tree stump concealed in tall grass.

Catching the Christmas tree the cat just knocked over…half second.

Would it be possible or practical to include attrition for movement, in certain circumstances? I know their is a far greater emphasis on eye, knee and elbow protection now, but would it be possible or practical to include attrition for movement, in certain circumstances? Perhaps a fog of war card to be played during a move, or do mechanics that do not allow a standard move distance already represent this?

DG, perhaps a sub-thread is needed: interesting things I landed on when moving in short rushes. My own experience, in civilian clothing, on rough heathland was quite abrasive, especially as the area is renowned for its high density of flint!

Dragon Gunner 05 Aug 2014 8:39 p.m. PST
@Badger22

I forgot to add the build up to that moment of humping ruck all day. It was a rare day when we were just trucked to the objective.

Don't remind Me !!!!