"Carnage & Culture. Anyone read this one?" Topic
11 Posts
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Weasel | 22 Jul 2014 4:33 p.m. PST |
link I've seen this recommended a few times, but I've also heard people say the evidence the author uses is extremely cherry picked. Any one knowledgeable who've read this and can give a thumbs up or down? |
raylev3 | 22 Jul 2014 5:33 p.m. PST |
If you consider the fact that there are a dozen variables or more in why an army is successful, and recognize that he's only addressing ONE of those, it's a good book. Generally, if you accept that culture is a factor in how a nation or people fight you can see where he's coming from. If you don't like the idea that culture is a determinant because to do so, in the end, is to pass some kind of judgment on one culture being better than the other, you probably won't like the book. But then, you don't have to agree with him to at least understand his thesis. |
MrMagoo | 23 Jul 2014 2:27 p.m. PST |
I've read several of Victor Davis Hanson's books and this is one of his best. He makes a very good case in pointing out the differences in Western warfare practices vs. Eastern warfare and why Western civilizations were generally more successful in conquering non-Western civilizations. I wouldn't say his examples are cherry-picked, but they provide good support for his theory and there are hundreds if not thousands of other examples out there. Keep in mind that nothing is 100%… Western civilizations got their rear-ends kicked plenty of times, by non-Westerners, but in total scorecard, the West is the clear winner. Bottom line, I would recommend the book it's a good read and gives you plenty to think on, even if you don't agree with the author's theory. |
wminsing | 23 Jul 2014 2:39 p.m. PST |
I've read it, though it was several years ago. The main problem I have with Hanson's thesis is that he relies on a fairly conventional definition of what it means to be 'Western' but then doesn't really draw a convincing thread from that definition to what allowed all of these (actually extremely diverse) 'Western' military forces to win those battles. I had a hard time finding convincing evidence that the Greeks at Salamis and the Spanish under Cortez were of the same mind and spirit, or had similar motivations, as one example. That said, it is a reasonably well written book and the ideas are worth discussing, so I would still recommend giving it a read. It's an important book in the whole 'is there a unique Western Way of War or not' debate amongst military historians, at least. -Will |
OSchmidt | 24 Jul 2014 5:26 a.m. PST |
I have read it. I'm a big fan of Hanson but this is I think his weakest book. It's not that his sources are cherry picked, it's that he can't really say what the evidence he presents shows. He'd be lynched. There is no problem with the Greeks and Salamis and the Spanish under Cortez being of the same mind and spirit as that mind and spirit can mutate through several societies but not culture. Hanson is trying to answer the question that his mentor Keegan attempted (and likewise failed his morale check to do) and others as well, beginning with H.H. Turney High and others. That question is "Why the West?--- and the rest?" The answer is extremely uncomfortable. Otto |
wminsing | 24 Jul 2014 6:50 a.m. PST |
There is no problem with the Greeks and Salamis and the Spanish under Cortez being of the same mind and spirit as that mind and spirit can mutate through several societies but not culture. But there is a problem with this, as the idea of a 'Western mind and spirit' relies on wishy-washy concepts about what it means to be a part of 'Western culture'. Did the Greeks of the 5th century BC and the Spanish of the 16th century AD really share social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, belief systems or political systems? The answer to this in all cases is pretty clearly no, or at best the resemblance was only superficial. The idea that the Europeans of the early modern era were direct cultural inheritors of Greeco-Roman traditions has more to do with the romance of Renaissance and Enlightenment writers than it does with good historiography and anthropology. The question of 'Why did the West win?' is definitely important, and I think part of the answer is indeed culture. But it's not THE answer. In any event, Weasel, I'd read the book and draw your own conclusions. It's an interesting question and well worth the discussion. -Will |
Weasel | 24 Jul 2014 9:03 a.m. PST |
I went ahead and ordered it. I figure anything spawning passionate debate is worth at least a read over. Been meaning to grab some history books lately so got that one and a few others I had been recommended over the past year or three. (Guns, Germs and Steel, which I shamefully have never read yet, Pursuit of glory, capitalism and slavery and the above mentioned Carnage and Culture) |
wminsing | 24 Jul 2014 10:47 a.m. PST |
Read Guns, Germs & Steel first, then Carnage and Culture. Hanson wrote his book as a direct response to Diamond's hypothesis about the nature of Western success and that way you'll get more out both books. -Will |
Weasel | 24 Jul 2014 11:36 a.m. PST |
That's good information, thanks! |
wminsing | 24 Jul 2014 5:15 p.m. PST |
You are welcome! Also by 'direct response' I meant 'attempt at a rebuttal', should have been more clear there. :) -Will |
Weasel | 24 Jul 2014 9:21 p.m. PST |
I sort of figured that was the case but appreciate the clarification! :) |
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