cpt shandy | 21 Jul 2014 8:23 a.m. PST |
Hi let me apologize up front for posing one of those questions…. but I've really racked my brains and would be grateful for some input: I'm starting a new project for El Cid and I'm looking for rules to cover medium-sized battles, that is somewhere in-between large skirmishes (I use Sharp Practice for WotR) and the type of large battles covered by DBA or Hail Caesar. What I want is - to be able to play narrative, even unbalanced scenarios (like the ones in the books by the Grants), not just one-on-one battles, which includes marching & maneuvering and not just lining up the troops and advancing until the dicing starts - a clever activation system (no IGO-UGO) - that they feel right for the early medieval period (I'm not convinced that medieval troops did advance in orderly formations and a straight line of battle like ancients…) - that a game can be played in less than 3 hours, better 1-2 hours Any suggestions? So far, Impetus looks interesting, but does it work for scenarios? Hail Caesar also looks interesting but needs too many figures and too much space for my situation (I only have a rather small table). Oh, and I'd like to do it in 15mm, but this is no real concern as I will convert anything when I like it. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks for your help! Cheers, Shandy |
MajorB | 21 Jul 2014 8:33 a.m. PST |
Hail Caesar also looks interesting but needs too many figures and too much space for my situation (I only have a rather small table). HC is entirely unit based so the number of figures in a unit is completely up to you. All that you need to be able to do is to distinguish between normal, large, small and tiny units. So for example, you could have a normal sized unit represented by 4 DBA sized elements (in other words the same size as an Impetus unit). Such small units will then work fine on a small table. |
cpt shandy | 21 Jul 2014 8:44 a.m. PST |
MajorB, do you think HC would work on a 120x80cm table in 15mm with 4 DBA sized elements as one normal unit? And how many units would fit there without it becoming too crowded? HC does sound interesting, it seems scenario-oriented… Cheers |
Nick B | 21 Jul 2014 8:59 a.m. PST |
Imputus (full not basic) – all elements 4 DBA base size and not IGO-UGO (which HC is). Commanders of different command abilities (with some special characteristics possible such as Charismatic or Cowardly)which influence turn sequence and rallying. Discipline levels of troops are rolled against to allow subsequent moves without becoming disrupted after the first movement. Includes rules for ambushes, flank marches and counter charging. Fully scaleable to suit the size of battle you want without the need for loads of figures or a huge table. Fits any scale of figure also. Great fun and keeps players engaged through the whole game. |
MajorB | 21 Jul 2014 8:59 a.m. PST |
Cpt Shandy, I have a table the same size. 4 DBA sized elements as one normal unit arranged in 2 ranks of 2 elements will have a frontage of 80mm. On a 120cm wide table there is thus enough room for about a dozen units in a single line, so yes, it should be fine. |
MajorB | 21 Jul 2014 9:03 a.m. PST |
Commanders of different command abilities (with some special characteristics possible such as Charismatic or Cowardly)which influence turn sequence and rallying. HC already has different command abilities and special characteristics can easily be added as Special Rules. Fully scaleable to suit the size of battle you want without the need for loads of figures or a huge table. Fits any scale of figure also. Also true of HC. |
Testiculies | 21 Jul 2014 9:03 a.m. PST |
Actually, you can play Saga with units based like DBA. |
MajorB | 21 Jul 2014 9:05 a.m. PST |
Actually, you can play Saga with units based like DBA. You could probably play pretty much any ancient or medieval rules with units based like DBA. I was going to say except skirmish, but Saga is pretty much a skirmish game! |
Extra Crispy | 21 Jul 2014 9:34 a.m. PST |
And you can always layer on a different activation structure to almost any rules set with just minor tweaks. I do it all the time. Card draw for specific units or specific commands. Command pips like DBA. Bidding like Polemos. |
Codsticker | 21 Jul 2014 10:07 a.m. PST |
I was going to add that about Hail Caesar; you could either alternate issuing orders, or dice off as in the LoTR SBG (a modified IGO/UGO). |
AcrylicNick | 21 Jul 2014 10:10 a.m. PST |
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warhorse | 21 Jul 2014 10:20 a.m. PST |
I strongly encourage a look at Dux Bellorum. About the level of complexity of DBA, but highly non-linear, in many ways. Very Roman-British focused, but there are several adaptations to other periods, including HYW, WotR and Biblical. Also, you just about can't beat the price (I paid $11 USD for the book on Amazon). That's Dux Bellorum, .. NOT Dux Brittaniarum… |
cpt shandy | 21 Jul 2014 11:50 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the hints so far! I'd be rather interested in HC, and changing the activation sounds like a great idea… I'd make it a card activation like the Lardies games. But 4 DBA bases is still a lot of figures for me… do you think it would work with only 2 DBA bases per unit, or is this daft? Dux Bellorum also sounds fun. I'll have to look into Ironbow, the period would be most fitting. |
MajorB | 21 Jul 2014 12:40 p.m. PST |
But 4 DBA bases is still a lot of figures for me… do you think it would work with only 2 DBA bases per unit, or is this daft? Not daft at all, and in fact reflects the flexibility of HC as a game system. Units can be what you decde them to be. Provided all your normal sized units have roughly the same frontage then it'll work fine. |
cpt shandy | 21 Jul 2014 1:40 p.m. PST |
Good to hear MajorB! That puts HC right on top of my list. And whatever rules I will use, it settles the question about how to base the figures: I'll use the DBA system – this will give me the flexibility to use HC as well as Impetus and Dux Bellorum. Now I can finally start painting! |
Bandolier | 21 Jul 2014 6:16 p.m. PST |
Take a look at Tree of Battles from Legio Wargames. They are free and currently my favourite set for Medievals. link |
KatieL | 22 Jul 2014 4:57 a.m. PST |
Fantasy Warriors!!! No, seriously -- it has a "battles" division system, ordering, C&C hierarchy, bitchy commanders who might reject orders… volley shooting, heroes, banners doing something useful… There's a HYW adaptation and WotR wouldn't be hard to derive. And it's free to try it out. |
Dexter Ward | 22 Jul 2014 6:10 a.m. PST |
You might want to have a look at Sword & Spear, here: link Very nice activation system, good for scenarios, easily playable in 3 hours. |
Marshal Mark | 26 Jul 2014 9:11 a.m. PST |
You might want to have a look at Sword & Spear, here: link Very nice activation system, good for scenarios, easily playable in 3 hours. I would say my Sword & Spear rules meet most of your requirements, particularly the clever activation system. In terms of the size of battles depicted, it depends what you mean by medium sized battles. In Sword & Spear there is not set unit to actual man ratio, but the relationship between unit frontage and bow range means that one heavy infantry unit is approximately 400 – 2000 men. So if you are talking about battles of around 3000 combatants per side upwards, then these rules are ideal. If you mean much smaller battles than this, then they are maybe not so suited. |
warhorse | 26 Jul 2014 12:34 p.m. PST |
Agreed. For smaller battles, Dux Bellorum plays very nicely. For larger units, they are less flexible, and need the restrictions of Sword and Spear placed on them. |