"looking for the contenceôf the havre sck" Topic

To all,
There should be a list with the things inside the havresack greetings serge joe

3 days rations

packet of three in my day……….You will not all understand that.

I do love this chap. No idea what he is on about and yet…..somehow it seems a perfectly reasonable question!

Some info would be nice thanks in advance greetings serge joe

Muket cleaning stuf brushes oil? spare flints a wood practice one?
black polish for shoes serge joe

I imagine haversack contents varied by natioanlity, location, morale state, the soldier's specific trade and so on. No such thing as a standard list I should think.

SoMajor

Ik stel inhoud haversack gevarieerd door natioanlity, locatie, moreel staat, specifieke handel van de soldaat en ga zo maar door. Niet zoiets als een standaard lijst zou ik denken


What the standard contents? greeting serge joe

Clothing. Not rations, not drinking liquids and certainly not ammo nor kit to maintain one's firearm. There were other carriers for these. Hence all these straps we have to paint!

Do you folks mean the canvas bag worn on the hip as " Havre Sack"? Or do you mean the box/bag worn on the back. Two decidedly different things and had different contents.

An enumeration is found here, in the description of how to put the stuff in the backpack (havresac) – in French only:

link

And a German translation:

demi-brigade.org/tornist.htm

I don't know an English translation, sorry.

Generally speaking the haversack will contain rations. The knapsack, snapsack, backpack etc will hold spare clothing, shoes, blacking ball, shoe brush, and so on.

Spontoon and the Major are absolutely right………of course! The haversack is not the backpack or whatever that is to be called.

I stand corrected and found that useful frankly………. thanks to all

What the standard contents?

There are no standard contents. As I think I said in my previous post.

follow the link Oliver Schmidt supplied and you will learn what should habe been carried in theory in the havresac – that is what the French called their back pack, they did not carry bread bags.

The havresac – should for that reason also contain two loafs of bread, but only one could be carried in the havresac the other one had to be carried with a rope or was attached at the outside of the havresac or even pegged on the bayonet.

Some3 K rations? rantsoenen greeting serge joe

Gents The sack on the side? greetings serge joe

For Russians ….

For the rectangular knapsacks [ ранцы / rantsy ] issued from July 1808, the knapsack was supposed to contain: 2 shirts, 1 pair of pants, 1 foot wrap, 1 forage cap, material for 1 pair of boots, 1 frizzen cover, 12 flints, 3 brushes, 2 scrapers, 1 small board for cleaning buttons, a small quantity of chalk and polish, a small valise with threads, soap, glue, needlecase with needles, moustache dye, dye comb, sand and a brick (for cleaning clothing), and rusks (hard, dry biscuits or a twice-baked bread, something like hardtack) for three days, so that the knapsack with the canteen and summer linen trousers weighed 25 pounds, but with the winter wool pants (instead of the summer) – 26 1/4 pounds.

In addition to these government issue items most soldiers also carried a spoon and a knife, often one like the Finnish puukko utility knife.

Extra cartridges might be added in wartime in place of some of the cleaning supplies, especially if the unit was in "bloomers" (loose, undyed light canvas or linen pants with drawstring closures, made up in the unit – cheaper and more comfortable than issue pants and easy to clean).

Water-flask [ водоносная фляжа / vodonosnaya flazha ] or canteen [ манерка / manerka ], made from double thickness tinned wrought iron (like French "fer-blanc") – height, without the cap – 6 3/8 inches, with the cap – 7 7/8 inches, breadth – 6 1/2 inches, and width – 3 inches – capacity about 2 liters. It was strapped to middle of the knapsack with deerskin straps 5/8 inch wide.

Сartridge pouch [ патронная сума / patronnaya suma ], carried 60 cartridges, with a small pocket is located on the outer wall of the box and fastened with a leather button, for replacement flints and small weapon accessories (vent-cleaner, screwdriver/prybar, spare screws, etc.). A slightly different pouch was issued for jäger and rifle-armed troops prior to 1808. Most soldiers also carried oiled/greased cleaning rag(s).

Also, no breadbag.

- Sasha

So the back back pack is no havresasack greetings serge joe

So al the French models should have a havre sack? greetings follow the link Oliver Schmidt supplied and you will learn what should habe been carried in theory in the havresac – that is what the French called their back pack, they did not carry bread bags. serge joe

For Russians they are neither haversacks nor backpacks, they are "ранцы".
:-)

- Sasha

re the man b.t.w. do notspeak russian!greetings serge joe

Alexandre

Very interesting, I was under the impression that Russians did carry bread bags, isn't for example Klein showing that??

Sasha you are the man b.t.w. do not speak russian!greetings serge joe

Didn't the French, at Austerlitz, go through Russian "ðàíöû" and found black bread which would seem to indicate that the russians were carrying their rations in their "ðàíöû"? :>) BTW since gibberish is the only other language that I am conversant in would ðàíöû loosely translate as "valise"?

Dear von Winterfeldt,

Maybe you think of this one, where the jäger has made a sort of makeshift backpack, for want of a real one:
link

Some junior officers used "breadbags" on campaign. But the officers had personal servants (batmen) and pack horss provided to them, and in the winter, a small private-purchase cart would be tolerated. They tended not to wear their backpacks.
The men formed their mess as an artel' – roughly 4 per company. The artel'shchik or commissary was a ranker chosen by election and relieved from other duties and provided with a small cart to carry food and other provisions. In peacetime, he arranged all sorts of commerical activities for his mess (rented labor, growing crops or making handicrafts for sale, small loans, etc., etc.].
There was also a larger company provisions wagon, with a non-combattant driver, that tied into the overall supply system for food.
Overseeing the provision of food and the location for the company to encamp or be lodged was a квартирьеръ унтеръ-офицеръ [ kvartir'er unter-ofitser / quartermaster corporal ] – who carried and placed the квартирьерскій значокъ [ kvartir'erskiy znachok / quarters pennant ], a small flag use to mark the company's location.
On the right in the Klein shown above, you see a younger soldier (of the second tank) loaded down with one of the 16 котловъ [ kotlov / boilers ] issued to each company.

So, maybe they really didn't need breadbags. I am sure they used various bags from time to time on campaign (including captured French backpacks), but the regulations and many contemporary images don't include them. See ….
http: //tuvok.services.brown.edu/adore-djatoka/viewer.html?filename=1354561687218754.jp2
http: //tuvok.services.brown.edu/adore-djatoka/viewer.html?filename=1235771464468750.jp2
http: //tuvok.services.brown.edu/adore-djatoka/viewer.html?filename=1235771646968750.jp2
http: //tuvok.services.brown.edu/adore-djatoka/viewer.html?filename=1235771281703125.jp2
http: //tuvok.services.brown.edu/adore-djatoka/viewer.html?filename=1339770733171880.jp2
http: //tuvok.services.brown.edu/adore-djatoka/viewer.html?filename=1235771373453125.jp2
http: //www.uniformen.napoleon-online.de/_data/i/upload/2014/01/09/20140109223210-3b75451a-me.jpg
http: //www.uniformen.napoleon-online.de/_data/i/upload/2014/01/09/20140109223208-eac034b8-me.jpg
http: //www.uniformen.napoleon-online.de/_data/i/upload/2014/01/13/20140113213132-1af1f895-me.jpg
http: //www.uniformen.napoleon-online.de/_data/i/upload/2014/01/08/20140108224848-250d17de-me.jpg
http: //napoleon-online.de/Russland1799_Weber1.jpg
http: //napoleon-online.de/Bilder/cappi_russen_tafel4.jpg
http: //napoleon-online.de/Bilder/cappi_russen_tafel5.jpg
http: //napoleon-online.de/Bilder/cappi_russen_tafel3.jpg
http: //napoleon-online.de/Kiel_Tafel18.jpg
http: //napoleon-online.de/Kiel_Tafel26.jpg

- Sasha

P.S. – "ранцы" could also be translated as "valises", especially if you are referring to the cylindrical model worn over one shoulder in use at the time of Austerlitz. I think "knapsacks" works better for the rectangular model with 2 shoulder straps introduced in 1808. Maybe a nice general translation would be "backpacks" – which maybe better covers both models.

Dear von Winterfeldt,

Well, I looked some more for some illustrations/mentions of a сухарная сумка / sukharnaya sumka / bread-bag (these could also be called сухарные мѣшки / sukharnye meshki ).

You might think that the soldier (militiaman?) on left has a breadbag. To me, it looks more like a chicken or other fowl hanging below his knapsack and maybe a tobacco pouch hanging from the hilt of the shortsword.

From a late 1807 inventory for the miscellaneous regimental effects of the 21st Jäger : "сухарные мѣшки съ пряжками и ремнями" / "bread-bags with buckles and straps" – quantity not given. It is not clear to me if these are in place of not-yet-delivered backpacks.

From 1813 ….

If you see backpacks on all these figures, then we have four late-period examples of actual breadbags (not substitutes for backpacks)

Note also the high, clothe over-the-kneee gaiters (French?) and if there are backpacks, that they have black (jäger) straps mixed with white (infantry) slings for the short swords, and "1812" (sic) style shakos with concave tops.

- Sasha

To al,
Tanks for this outstanding info al the best serge joe