"Russian separatists has shot down Su-25 fighter..." Topic

… with 9K35 Strela-10 SA-13 air defense missile system.

"According Reuters, Ukrainian separatists killed 23 Ukrainian soldiers and wounded nearly 100 in a missile attack on Friday, July 11, 2014. A picture released on Reuters website shows Pro-Russian separatist fighters with 9K35 Strela 10 (NATO code SA-13 Gopher) short-range surface-to-air defense missile system.

Armed with Man-Portable Air Defense Systems (MANPADS), the separatists have been taking down Ukrainian military aircraft since the beginning of June. On June 13, separatists shot down a Ukrainian transport plane that had been carrying 40 paratroopers and nine crew members.

Russian separatists claimed responsibility for shooting down two additional Ukrainian Su-25 fighters on Wednesday. The Ukrainian Defense Ministry reported that one of the jets was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile…"

Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

Amazing how those "separatists" were able to master that and the Buk weapons platforms so quickly, complicated radar systems and all.

Almost like they had help or something.

Buk in the army from 1979. Just talked to one of my school pals yesterday…he was Buk operator back in 1985. With conscript army you were getting several military specialities. I can operate several (now obsolete) radio stations, howitzer and BM-21 as well as first generation laser fire control system. Training in PVO troops ( who have Buks and S-200/S-300 system was pretty good. Therefore with conscript army you can get several operators from a couple of million citizens with little problem…but I will not be surprised if there were some volunteers/mercs too.
Also, it is worth to mention that it seems that rebels have only launchers itself, but not separate radar and command platforms, that require better knowledge to operate.

<<The SA-11 system is comprised of the TELAR (9A310M1), Loader/Launcher (9A39M1), SNOW DRIFT Surveillance Radar (9S18M1), and Command and Control vehicle (9S470M1).>>
link

It does sometimes seem strange that people assume that the separatists and other similar groups don't include former soldiers or deserters, or that if they did such former soldiers and deserters suddenly 'forget' how to operate equipment.

Garrison,

What you say sounds logical…except that being in the military doesn't automatically mean you can operate every bit of equipment. This isn't Dungeons and Dragons where you just get the 'military weapons' proficiency and you can suddenly operate everything from a rifle to a SAM battery to a nuclear submarine.

People who operate special systems are known as specialists for a reason. As someone who served in the military, and whose job it was to study Soviet gear, if you sat me in front of a BUK, I might just figure out how to turn it on after a week with a manual and a lot of trial and error. I might also just blow out all the circuits. If you'd ask me to hit something with it, I'd just laugh at you. An SA-11 is a lot more complex than a 40mm Bofors gun where you just load it, turn the knobs and hit the pedal to fire. It was also built with 1970s control systems (which were probably updated in the 1980s and 1990s, but are still basically similar to the original controls).

Barin might have been trained on those systems, and I don't doubt that a lot of people have had that training, but expecting that lots of folks in the militia just happen to have the skill to put together a full SAM battery (requiring the launcher, radars and control systems all working well in order to fire) and get the kind of success they've had over the last month (this isn't the first craft shot down) seems more far fetched to me than a few advisors on site calling the shots.

I'm more shocked that people expect someone in the military to just be able to operate anything put in front of them as if we all soldiers get proficiency in all weapons systems just for joining up. If that were true, the military would be full of tank driving fighter jocks who are martial arts specialists with the ability to fix complex radar systems on the fly and do maintenance on guided missile cruisers (wait, isn't that the plot of Stargate?).

(Oh, and the above pictured is an SA13- easier to operate than a BUK, but still a lot more complex than turning it on and pulling the trigger).

If Ukrainian rebels hit Malaysian plane, where'd they get the missile?

"Thursday's downing of a Malaysia Airlines passenger plane carrying 295 people, by a surface-to-air missile, has launched widespread speculation about whether the Russian military might have provided Ukraine's rebel separatists with such a weapon.

That is the inference of Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko: "We are not calling it an accident, or a disaster, but an act of terrorism."

Pentagon officials were unable to verify the reports as of Thursday afternoon. "We've long said that Russia provides separatists with heavy weapons, but I couldn't begin to speculate on this," says Eileen Lainez, a Pentagon spokeswoman…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

@TGerritsen:

Most of the shoot downs have been with MANPADS which a lot of former infantry would have training in using. We also have no idea about the shot to hit ratio. In addition the Malaysian Airlines shoot down seems to have happened because they weren't operating with a full Buk battery, but with just the launcher (which can operate on its own but with a less sophisticated radar). A properly trained battery would have verified the size, altitude, and course of the target, as well as checking for commercial transponders.

I'm sure they are getting some training from Russian "volunteers", but it would not be hard to round up some guys who had trained on these systems given the broad popular support they have. Given the desertions that have happened the operators could have been Ukrainian military members a few months ago.

The point I'm actually trying to make is that it's highly likely that some of the separatists probably belonged to the unit that originally operated the battery that was used – and that is made even more likely by the fact that the separatists only appeared to have access to parts of the system.

Amazing how those "separatists" were able to master that and the Buk weapons platforms so quickly, complicated radar systems and all.

Almost like they had help or something.

Or maybe they were trained on it back when they were conscripted in the Ukrainian/Russian/Soviet army…

I mean, the Buk is broadly comparable to the US's Chapparal system ( link ), but it's completely self-contained. The search radar is mounted on the same vehicle that the missiles are. Drive the thing to where it has a good field of view, park it, and turn on the radar. Wait for radar to lock onto aircraft, hit the launch button.

The missiles are sealed-tube all-up-rounds, so they don't require much maintenance and pretty much zero prep. Attach the launch tube to the frame, lock it in place, and then plug the electrical cables into the junction box. Turn system back on after the crew is back inside the armor.

A Look At How The Ukraine Rebels Built Up Their Arsenal

"Under a blazing sun in early June, a group of pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine were digging amid pine woods near the town of Krazny Liman.

Their grizzled commander was a bearded man in his 50s who would not tell us where he was from, but acknowledged that he wasn't local. He was proud to show off his unit's most prized possession -- a truck-mounted anti-aircraft unit that was Russian-made.

He told us the weapon had been seized from a Ukrainian base…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

2 Ukrainian Fighter Jets Have Been Shot Down By Pro-Russian Rebels

"Two Ukrainian military jets were shot down in the Donetsk region of the country today, the Ukrainian defense ministry said.

The planes were identified as Sukhoi-25 fighter jets. The fate of the planes' pilots was not immediately known.

It happened at 12:30 p.m. Ukraine time (5:30 a.m. ET). Defense ministry did not state what kind of weapon was used to down the jets…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

I heard one pilot was killed, and the other ejected.

Supposedly, the rebels are hunting for the survivor.