"New 40k Box Set Review - Stormclaw" Topic
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MongooseMatt | 16 Jul 2014 7:29 a.m. PST |
Just managed to get hold of the new 40k starter set, a little box-opening review up on Tabletop Gamer's Diary… link |
Legion 4 | 16 Jul 2014 7:41 a.m. PST |
As usual, very expensive … |
nvdoyle | 16 Jul 2014 8:08 a.m. PST |
Hmm…the usual 20% off at other retailers brings it just down to $100 USD, which seems to be a bit much for that amount of plastic figs, compared to the past few starter boxes. I may just wait for the Ork sprues to go on sale separately. |
Mr Canuck | 16 Jul 2014 8:09 a.m. PST |
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Capt Flash | 16 Jul 2014 8:48 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the review. I have to agree that the cost for this set is far too expensive for what the contents… |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 16 Jul 2014 8:55 a.m. PST |
The good thing about these starter sets is that they come with the mini easy-to-carry rulebook. But I don't play Space Wolves or Orks so getting this just for the rulebook is not cost-effective. If I want it bad enough I can always pay $20 USD for it on Ebay later. |
Battle Phlox | 16 Jul 2014 9:01 a.m. PST |
I'm not a huge fan of GW so it is hard for me to write this. If you need Orks or Space Wolves it can actually be a good deal. The model contents are the same you get if you bought them separately and you run you about $175. USD That is not including the character models who are exclusive to the limited run set or the mini rule book. If you play one army or the other you can always trade contents. |
PapaSync | 16 Jul 2014 10:31 a.m. PST |
It only really works out if you split it with a friend whos looking to get the other army. 8) |
BlackWidowPilot | 16 Jul 2014 12:10 p.m. PST |
$100. USD Do y'all have any idea how many 15mm figures I can get from Khurasan or Ground Zero Games or Rebel Minis or Ravenstar Studios for $100 USD alone, never mind the actual play value bang for the buck? EM4 is rolling out the classic Metal Magic Space Lords figures; if I'm going to drop $100 USD for 28mm figures, it would be in EM4s general direction… The corporate psychology of "Games Sweatshop" has become all too absurdly predictable already, and this continuation trend of less product for more money is simply not going to garner my business, nor I suspect that of a great many others above the age of "Games Sweatshop's" target market of twelve-year-olds whose parents are the ones who will be expected to shell out the dough. I also suspect that in the current global economy, a great many parents of twelve-year-olds are rather more focused on just keeping a roof over their heads and food on the table than whether or not junior gas the latest $100 USD+ set of plastic toy figures… Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net
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Bob Runnicles | 16 Jul 2014 1:43 p.m. PST |
I wouldn't worry about it, Leland, Stormclaw has already gone out of print. Guess they blew through their *entire* limited run while still in the preorder phase, at least in the US, and since this was a limited edition it is unlikely to be reprinted. Someone is buying it! Regarding the number of figures in the box, this is NOT technically a starter set anyway (they have repackaged Dark Vengeance with the 7e rulebook for that) but more of a 'campaign starter'. With the exception of the two character models, everything in here is from the currently available range and thus comes with the massive range of options that the separately available sets come with. As someone else pointed out, compared to buying the sets separately it's actually a pretty huge savings even without considering the rulebook and character minis you got in it. |
Mad Mecha Guy | 16 Jul 2014 2:34 p.m. PST |
I was at my local book store/miniature manufacturer earlier today & they had a new GW box set, around the size of a small briefcase (printed vinyl over hardboard/thick cardboard) & I'm sure they said a limited deluxe box at £250.00 GBP Was open but could only set some small books/card in top, certainly was not very big, must of had gold plated figures in it. |
nvdoyle | 16 Jul 2014 3:02 p.m. PST |
We'll, if I go to em4 for 28s, as 15s are just a bit too small for me to paint, and I like to convert my figs, I can get 38 metal minis, or 100+ plastics. Now, em4's plastics are not up to GW's level in quality of material, casting crispness, or sculpting quality, but as I only get 33 plastic figs in the Stormclaw box, there's a balance somewhere in there. I don't consider the aesthetics; some like GW's style, others don't. It doesn't really matter to the quality of the figs and 'bang for your buck' if you like them both, as I do. Now, if em4 doesn't charge VAT to non-EU customers, that changes things even more… |
ordinarybass | 16 Jul 2014 3:31 p.m. PST |
Yes, yes, yes it's more expensive than most other wargames… Blah, blah, blah… Is this really a surprise? I agree, and 7th edition is a game I will not be buying, but the fact is that for GW fans who are into orks or Wolves, it's a pretty good deal. I'm kind of interested by a rumor I heard that there will be other campaign boxes like this with different armies in them. Thanks for the unboxing. A nice overview of the contents and the sprue pics are especially welcome. |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 16 Jul 2014 3:45 p.m. PST |
We need Mithmee to decry GW's highway robbery here. Where are you Mithmee? :) |
justBill | 16 Jul 2014 4:16 p.m. PST |
Where can I send flowers for this dead horse? |
Privateer4hire | 16 Jul 2014 7:12 p.m. PST |
A big sell for this box was apparently the mini-rulebook for the newly released 7th edition. The 7th ed rules are apparently only available otherwise as an $85 USD hard cover set. Many folks are buying it for this smaller paperback set of rules and swapping/selling off the other stuff. |
Mithmee | 17 Jul 2014 1:21 p.m. PST |
Thing is the number of Orks in it suck. But picking up some of those Cans on Ebay later might by okay. But if you already have over 200+ Orks and around 130 Gretchen (old school Gretchen)
Why do you need to give GW any more money. |
Cergorach | 17 Jul 2014 3:02 p.m. PST |
Simply put folks have rose tinted goggles on! Those 15mm are rather expensive when you realize that they are taking up 9x less space and should be 9x cheaper in that aspect, it's not. A 10 man unit of IG is less then 4x as expensive as a 10 man unit of 15mm khurasan. A 15mm unit comparable in size to the three walkers will set you back $20 USD+/piece Compared to em4 the GW minis are about 20% more expensive normally. The only way those em4 metal minis look better is through the nostalgia colored glasses (I know, I have a pair of those)! This box doesn't contain any normal human sized troops, we have powered armored troops, heavy powered armored troops, giant humanoids (Nobs+boss) and actual walkers. This is including the actual complete rules (plus campaign). Yes GW is general very expensive, today even more extreme then a few years ago, but in this case (and the case of DV and IoB) it's not the case. I love my 15mm to and have quite some ugly ass nostalgia projects, so I'm not a blind GW zombie, but everything else in wargaming mini land isn't better/cheaper then GW. I actually bought 5 boxes for €375.00 EUR (inc. shipping) when I sell of four sets of rules and special characters I hope I'll be down to €250.00 EUR (or even less). That's not bad for rules, 2x special and limited characters, 25x Terminators, 50x Space Marines, 25x Nobs, 15x Killer Kans (walkers), 50x Grots, 5x Herderz, and none of those are snapfits (but full kits with a BIG discount). @BlackWidowPilot A 30mm tall Imperial guardsman costs $2.90 USD/figure. A ~20mm long Spirit Rider costs $3.25 USD/ship. Remember those nostalgia colored glasses I have, I generally use them for Silent Death purchases… ;-) |
chironex | 17 Jul 2014 4:14 p.m. PST |
Tallarn + $6.50 USD. Vostroyan, Steel Legion = $6. USD Cadian Shock Troops = $4.80 USD. There's only one pack that seems to match your assessment. Also, we don't need the tinted lenses as there are better-looking figures for less in many places. And, such simple assessments are not a good indicator of value for money. Sometimes I do see items in a GW store for which I would pay $75 USD or even $90. USD But then most kits that are actually in that price range contain very little. Production standards will not cover up poor designs, nor the fact that I just paid over $75 USD for an object the size of my hand that doesn't do anything except as an evolved form of meeple. At any rate, this $190 USD set is no longer there to buy so any argument over its value for money is irrelevant. |
SouthernPhantom | 18 Jul 2014 9:35 a.m. PST |
What the hell, chironex? Even just a few years ago (maybe five or six), I could get Cadians for $1.75 USD a pop. That's a 174% price increase- I doubt GW's production costs jumped that much in the same period. |
Mithmee | 18 Jul 2014 6:23 p.m. PST |
True but their greed did. |
Cergorach | 19 Jul 2014 2:30 a.m. PST |
I don't know what your looking at, but I'm seeing $29 USD for 10 Cadian Shock Troopers, that's $2.90 USD a piece. The Vostroyan, Steel Legion, Tallarn, Mordian, etc. are $3.50 USD a piece. Are you looking at US prices or something else? |
chironex | 19 Jul 2014 3:39 p.m. PST |
Australian. And that's plus post, i.e. you would only pay that if you found out what the new, higher, free postage threshold is (if they even still have one) or if you actually went to a GW store. Still don't see "what my looking at?" |
Mithmee | 19 Jul 2014 7:43 p.m. PST |
Eldar Dire Avengers Were $3.50 USD per model now $7.00 USD a 100% increase. Why? because they are the most likely troop choice. So GW decided to get greedy and up the price of them. |
Wolfprophet | 19 Jul 2014 11:13 p.m. PST |
I bought two for the wolves and traded the orks for more wolves. Haters gonna hate. No s given. |
Cergorach | 20 Jul 2014 2:46 a.m. PST |
I have little patience for the Australian prices complaints, Australians should stop making so much money, that way folks selling stuff wouldn't need higher pricing to pay rent/food/salary/etc. ;-) Doesn't this site do $1.00 USDAUS I do agree that the Dire Avenger change was a bastard move! |
chromedog | 20 Jul 2014 4:31 a.m. PST |
Stormclaw ISN'T a "starter". DA/DV is THE "starter" for 7th ed. [s]stormclaw[/s] hangnail is just a "campaign box". Don't blame me for the pedantry. GW themselves called the sets this. |
BlackWidowPilot | 20 Jul 2014 10:52 a.m. PST |
@BlackWidowPilot A 30mm tall Imperial guardsman costs $2.90 USD USD/figure. A ~20mm long Spirit Rider costs $3.25 USD USD/ship. Remember those nostalgia colored glasses I have, I generally use them for Silent Death purchases… ;-) I'm game, Mr. C, so do tell, how many of those Imperial Guardsmen do you need to buy to play the game, versus how many Spirit Riders does one need to play Silent Death? In a contest over bang for the wargaming buck, GW loses by a significant margin.
When you stack up 15mm figures versus GW, again, what rules are you playing, and how many figures and/or models do you need to field a viable force? Warhammer 40,000 started as a game. It morphed into a corporate marketing strategy to sell increasingly expensive figures and models after the 1st edition Rogue Trader days, and has only escalated as such ever since. Today if you want to field a viable WH40K Imperial Guard army, how many squads and tank models do you need to have a fighting chance against an opponent? Now, for that same outlay of cash, how big a force of say, Khurasan Federal Army Exterminators and Caiman APCs can you field? Hammer's Slammers armor and infantry? How about a force built from Rebel Minis Titan Marines including mechs and APCs? As for Silent Death, for the same outlay of cash for a viable Imperial Guard army, how many fighters, gunboats, and escort vessels can you put on the table, and just how formidable a force would that be? And DON'T get me started about *historicals!* Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net
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Mithmee | 20 Jul 2014 5:21 p.m. PST |
Today if you want to field a viable WH40K Imperial Guard army, how many squads and tank models do you need to have a fighting chance against an opponent? Now about $1,200 USD to $1,500 USD or more. |
Cergorach | 21 Jul 2014 7:11 a.m. PST |
@BWP: You don't NEED any 40k figures, you can use cardboard counters, like the ones you got with RT or 2E (how do you think a 11 year old could play mini games 27 years ago?). I always think that it's a cop out to say how many figs do you need? You need x amount of gold figures, but only one platinum encrusted with diamonds figure to play Y. Keep in mind that that $3.25 USD/space ship mini adds shipping, taxes, import fees, etc. GW stuff on the other hand I can get in bulk backs (like this campaign box), free shipping, and a 20% discount. For €75.00 EUR I got a fully playable game with two factions. How many ships, a rulebook and a hex map including a shipping would I get for $67 USD (If I didn't already have those)? GW has a distribution advantage for us Europeans over you local US boys. GW gets cheaper because you can get it everywhere (at a discount + free shipping), US based manufacturers with a very limited or no distribution network have a great disadvantage. Scenario #1 from the campaign boxed set only uses one squad of 5 Space Marines => $18.63 USD , funny thing is that due to this 'deal' I effectively only paid around $5 USD for those five marines. |
BlackWidowPilot | 22 Jul 2014 3:58 p.m. PST |
@BWP: You don't NEED any 40k figures, you can use cardboard counters, like the ones you got with RT or 2E (how do you think a 11 year old could play mini games 27 years ago?). I always think that it's a cop out to say how many figs do you need? You need x amount of gold figures, but only one platinum encrusted with diamonds figure to play Y. OK, I'll bite, Mr. C., how many games of WH40K have you seen of late played with counters? Tournaments? League play? Used to be that most teenagers could afford to buy some miniature figures and go play a wargame back when I was first introduced to this hobby in 1976, and it didn't cost the equivalent of a half month's rent… Keep in mind that that $3.25 USD USD/space ship mini adds shipping, taxes, import fees, etc. GW stuff on the other hand I can get in bulk backs (like this campaign box), free shipping, and a 20% discount. For €75.00 EUR EUR I got a fully playable game with two factions. How many ships, a rulebook and a hex map including a shipping would I get for $67 USD USD (If I didn't already have those)? $67 USD? OK, the rules are only valuable as a PDF at present, so that's $9.00 USD, no shipping for a PDF download. The Silent Death: The Next Millennium rulebook includes ship displays for 24 fighters and gunboats, plus a ship design system enabling players to adapt other miniatures or models as they desire. We have no problem with this, as the point of playing a game is to have fun, and we're all in favor of people having fun playing our games…
So, moving ever swiftly on, a hex map you can get for free actually: hexographer.com
And yes, there's space maps in that free system:
link
Hex gaming mats are AFAIK available in the EU as they are here in the US, but again, if you're talking about the most bang for your wargaming buck, we'll stick to the K.I.S.S. Principle and the free hexographer system…
Now, about those starfighter minis, you can purchase the twelve Core Ships together as plastics with plastic flight stands through EM4 in the U.K. for L2.55 including VAT: link
So that's about $4.35 USD at the current exchange rate. So we've got $58 USD left after buying the rules PDF. Let's hedge our bets and buy eight sprues from EM4 for $34.80 USD (and tell Doug I sent you!), leaving the rest to cover shipping. What have we got for our purchase? Eight of each of the following fighters:
*Spirit Rider (single seat light fighter) *Dart (single seat light fighter) *Kosmos (single seat light-medium fighter) *Blizzard (single seat light fighter) *Pit Viper (single seat light fighter) *Thunderbird (single seat light fighter) *Nighthawk (single seat medium fighter) *Lance Electra (two seat strike fighter) *Hellbender (single seat medium fighter) *Talon (single seat light-medium fighter) *Teal Hawk (two seat light fighter) *Salamander (two seat medium fighter)
96 total ship minis, more than enough for two full on mixed fighter squadrons or broken up to make specialty squadrons, or however you want to mix and match 'em.
GW has a distribution advantage for us Europeans over you local US boys. GW gets cheaper because you can get it everywhere (at a discount + free shipping), US based manufacturers with a very limited or no distribution network have a great disadvantage. And that is a good thing for you, but not so much for those of us who reside in The Colonies or Down Under. Further, GW still tries to push the marketing department canard that they and they alone are The Games Sweatshop Hobby(TM) to the exclusion of all reality. Pffft! LOL!! It just makes their claims of exclusivity all the more absurd frankly once one encounters all of the talent and creativity and fun to be had in the wider miniature wargaming hobby that existed decades before a little British company named Citadel Miniatures toddled onto the scene back in the 1980s…
Scenario #1 from the campaign boxed set only uses one squad of 5 Space Marines => $18.63 USD USD , funny thing is that due to this 'deal' I effectively only paid around $5 USD USD for those five marines. The Silent Death: The Next Millennium rulebook includes six scenarios and a mini campaign. I've already broken down the costs of ship miniatures via the most affordable route for our friends in Europe.
Clearly you got a deal on GW miniatures at your end of the multiverse. Excellent. Over here and elsewhere, there is no such deal apparently, so we're forced to either hold our noses and pay the asking price, or seek alternatives. (how do you think a 11 year old could play mini games 27 years ago?). Now this brings me back to a real personal gripe I have with GW, their trying to turn the miniature wargaming hobby into their exclusive rich man's game. When I started playing sci fi miniature war-games back in 1976 using figures made by McEwan Miniatures for a little game called Starguard!, I was able to save up my allowance from my middle class parents and buy enough troops for two sides, plus some paints and brushes, super glue and spray paint for primer. I was also able to buy up some 1/72 scale plastic tank models and convert those to use as sci fi tanks to add some heavy firepower to my growing forces of humans and aliens, and my friends all middle or working class kids were able to do much the same.
Now? A kid here in the States wants to play WH40K, well, he'd either best be a trust fund baby, or have some very well paid and indulgent parents if that child wants to afford to play a game larger than a meagre handful of figures on a side, and definitely so if that child wants to play in a tournament or a league. And that child's parents had better be ready to adjust to the changes in rules and army lists that suddenly render entire armies as ineffectual, figures no longer even available to the game, or worse still, a new and expensive vehicle or large creature model that has just imbalanced the game in favor of the lucky army that gets to field the shiny new $120 USD exclusive super limited edition kit. Silent Death: The Next Millennium as just one example works from a different perspective, that of being a fun game first, and secondarily a means to make money and only do so by virtue of its qualities as a game rather than as a marketing strategy to build in obsolescence and force a change to the rules system every two years or less to keep driving sales of figures to each new crop of twelve year olds. Ya see, Mr. C. unlike the GWmarketing department shirts, I for one want people to keep playing Silent Death: The Next Millennium years form now whether we succeed as a business or not, come Hell, high water, or the Second Coming. Don't like our ship minis or can't afford them? No problem! Use whatever you like, from counters to kitbashed ships to proxies from toys or other manufacturers to your heart's content, and if we ever do start running tournaments we're not going to begrudge you your fleet full of proxies as long as your opponents are all OK with facing your flying hunks of junk, or baring that, I'll loan you one of my own if I've got enough to go around. Seriously. So if you're having fun, Mr. C. more power to you. In fact, we may just have another use for your Space marines, as proxies for playtesting our new ground combat rules set in the Terran Space universe of Silent Death: The Next Millennium, so do keep your Inquisitor's cyborg eye peeled accordingly… Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net
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Mithmee | 22 Jul 2014 10:11 p.m. PST |
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BlackWidowPilot | 23 Jul 2014 2:46 p.m. PST |
Concerning another entry point into this hobby of ours, Starguard! is still very much with us, and still affordable by orders of magnitude to WH40K. The rules are available as a PDF for $10 USD: tin-soldier.com/sgrules.html
Starguard! starter sets are $12.50 USD for ten (10) assorted figures and available for every one of the sixteen (16) human and alien factions presented in the game, along with all sorts of robots, vehicles, and heavy support weapon systems. For example: link
The Starguard themselves are the marines of the Terran Federation, and they have powered armor that acts a lot like the description in a certain classic military sci fi novel from 1959…
Another example: tin-soldier.com/ralnai.html The Ralnai are reptiloids who are somewhat akin to velociraptors (especially in their mindsets!) who love to fight and whose culture is based upon the acquisition of slaves and underlings as a direct reflection of an individual Ralnai's social status and rank, a perfect formula for constant raiding of neighboring civilizations for slaves and loot, and yes, believe it or not, the Ralnai have allies:
tin-soldier.com/alinru.html
The Alin Ru' are ursinoids whom the Ralnai made the mistake of trying to enslave, and wound up admiring their fighting prowess so much they did something unprecedented; the Ralnai made peace with the Alin Ru' and established diplomatic and trade relations with their civilization, and eventually made them full members of the Ralnai Empire(!!).
Alin Ru' are fearless, physically as powerful as a bear (and about as large), and have a sufficiently advanced technology of their own to make any encounter on the battlefield a very nasty affair. So there it is, for a PDF for $10 USD, two starter sets at $12.50 USD each, for a total of circa $35.00 USD plus shipping for the figures, find a tabletop, kludge some quicky terrain together, and you are playing a classic game of sci fi ground combat, and you probably didn't break your piggy bank in doing it. God, how I love this hobby of ours! Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net |
alien BLOODY HELL surfer | 23 Jul 2014 4:21 p.m. PST |
Orks are quite nice. Can't stand the direction they have gone with the space puppies, although I was never keen on them before – until I started reading about them in the Heresey novels. The interest stops when I see the models though, especially the giant wolf riders – a bad concept let down by awful sculpting on the wolves – can only think they were done by the same guy who made the beastmen's boar mounts look like ALF :D |
Capt Flash | 24 Jul 2014 9:09 a.m. PST |
RE: Starguard--- Whilst I can't comment on the rules themselves, I will say that I find the minis are less than desirable for myself. GWs minis are an order of magnitude better in every respect I, personally, can think of… I'd be interested in a detailed review of the rules and game mechanics. -Edgar |
Capt Flash | 24 Jul 2014 9:29 a.m. PST |
Well I followed up on my post and checked out a review thread here on TMP. It seems the more positive reviews rated them as being a rather mediocre, dated set and that the current edition is not an improvement at all. Well that answers that question. -Edgar |
BlackWidowPilot | 24 Jul 2014 1:51 p.m. PST |
Edgar, Starguard! figures are 1/72 scale, so the human figures are 1 inch tall measuring from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head not including headgear (1 inch = 6 feet). Most of them were mastered back in the 1970s to a consistent standard and all use the same methodology -lost wax- to produce the masters. They are by definition Old School, and considering that Starguard! is now 40 years old, the differences in production is of course going to be striking compared to today's methods. Even so, they still paint up easily and have a nice retro style reflecting their origins, especially the sci fi novels that inspired the game designers to set pen to paper back in 1974 and create Starguard!, most notably Robert A. Heinlein, Gordon R. Dickson, and H. Beam Piper. Starguard! frankly started this aspect of the hobby as far as anyone can tell, being the first set of sci fi ground combat rules and dedicated figures *ever.* This is the granddaddy of all sci-fi miniatures games, so I can understand how it doesn't exactly conform to today's trends in game design, and it certainly won't be presenting any fantasy races any time soon… "Mediocre?" "Dated?" LOL!!! When's the last time you actually played the game? The game is simple, fun, and quite fast and furious depending upon the willingness of the players to get stuck in. But seriously, if that's not your cup of tea and you prefer the larger 28mm "scale" figures of Games Sweatshop and don't care about how much money you spend per figure (or live where you can get a deal like Mr. C above), then more power to you! As for rules, that's the real pleasure of this genre IMHO; we're not tied to any one rules system or background. Don't like Starguard! or WH40K? No problem, as there's a whole bunch of choices for science fiction ground combat rules suitable for 28mm "scale:" *5150 Star Army
*Tomorrow's War *Stargrunt II *Infinity *Kryomek *MERCS *Mutants and Death Ray Guns *Omega Warrior *Hammer's Slammers *Warpath And so on. My point in bringing up Starguard! was an example of (1) how this hobby got started, (2) how affordable it was to start in this hobby, (3) how GW has gone out of its corporate way to try and strong-arm marketing its way into essentially co-opting a hobby that existed long before WH40KRT was a gleam in its authors' eyes, a hobby that was and remains vastly more interesting and creative than GW's corporate suits constant rehashing of the same grimdark imagery into increasingly over the top renderings while trying to turn the hobby into a rich man's game by constantly raising prices, changing the force structures to drive sales, and changing the rules every two years solely to drive sales amongst their target marketing demographic (remember these guys, anyone: link ) Further, GW doesn't care if you buy their wares if you're over the age of 12, as those of us who have passed into adulthood are known internally as "beardies," and we are *not* their target market audience (nor do they care about what we think about their antics). Each new generation of 12-year-olds is their overriding focus, Edgar, and if they can keep raising prices while lowering their costs ("Finecast," anyone?) and get people to pay what they're asking, it's all good as far as GW is concerned. So if you like their figures, perfect. It makes you happy. Personally, if I'm going to drop $67 USD on some figures or a new game system, I am going to be a bit choosy, as I want the most wargaming bang for my hard earned buck, and if the game system is fun, I want to be able to recommend it to my friends and acquaintances without too many reservations, and with so many different manufacturers to choose from in 28mm from Hasslefree to Heresy, from Mantic to EM4, from Dreamforge to Hydra, from Copplestone Castings to Old Glory/Blue Moon, I can pass on the Skullz(TM) and Chaos(TM) and go right on having all kinds of fun with the larger, more interesting hobby that predates Games Sweatshop by a good many years, and continues to exist well and thoroughly despite their best efforts to turn it all into a rich man's game. Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net
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chironex | 24 Jul 2014 7:33 p.m. PST |
@Cergorach: it would be a cop-out if you hadn't actually bought the set… |
Cergorach | 26 Jul 2014 4:35 a.m. PST |
@BlackWidowPilot I already made a big, big order with em4, ordered 24 sprues (already had 12 sprues) of space ships ;-) (and a ton of bases) My point was that YOU were selling $3.25 USD Spirit Riders and complaining about expensive minis from GW infantry models. Sold my extra rulebooks/character models in less then a week (the rulebooks were gone in a day), sold for €150.00 EUR, so €225.00 EUR for five sets ;-) Funny that your lists Infinity, the new 2-player starter is $90 USD for 15 (metal) models and stripped rules (as far as I can tell). The MERCS KS set me back ~$600, sure that got me almost one of everything, but still ;-) Your also listing sci-fi skirmisch games alongside games that use a lot more then a handful of miniatures. The biggest issue is that 40k is the biggest sci-fi miniatures game around. If I would want to play 40k, there are a handful of players in my town (~20,000 people), if I want to play for example Battletech there are a handful of people in my whole country (~17,000,000 people). Game systems pretty much extinct in NL: *5150 Star Army *Stargrunt II *Kryomek *MERCS *Mutants and Death Ray Guns *Omega Warrior *Hammer's Slammers Had a brief period of popularity, but otherwise in danger of complete extinction: *Tomorrow's War *Warpath Fading away: *Infinity The big games in the country are: (*Historical wargaming) *40k *Warmachine/Hordes *Star Wars X-Wing *WFB *LotR Don't get me wrong, there are a TON of other great games out there, I have a some of them in my collection (BT, RL, SD, HG, JC, GK, BS, VoiD, KM, CW, etc.). The only way I would be able to play a lot of those systems is by providing forces on both sides, I have enough minis for most of those systems to do that. But imho that is rather boring and a ton of work for me (have to assemble, clean, base, paint twice as many minis.). I spent a ton of money recently to lift my sci-fi space based games to the next level, great gaming mats, advanced bases, etc. But if I wanted to play a sci-fi space ship game right now, I better pick up X-Wing. 15mm was popular for a short while, folks got really creative, used Tomorrow's War mostly, but it was pretty much a fad around here (although I'm still assembling forces). Starguard! might be the source, but it died many, many years ago (just like Chainmail for fantasy), now a few people are left playing with a dead body ;-) 40k has been around for 27 years and still going strong. Do I like everything they have done? Of course NOT! But there's a lot I do like, some of their kits are a great pleasure to put together. Do I like the company and the direction it's going? Of course not, it's a bunch of lemmings running at the abyss. Does that matter? Very little in the grand scheme of things, because if it ever does crash and burn I still have a ton of great minis. In the end I like my plastic and there's very little good plastic in the sci-fi/fantasy 28-32mm scene, GW has the most (Dreamforge has the best). Btw. Good plastic is the hard kind on sprues that you can actually glue with plastic glue. And while we might get some great deals on GW minis, we're still stuck with to little room to play with (housing cost is very high compared to the US/AU, with a few exceptions ;-) |
Judge Doug | 26 Jul 2014 8:12 a.m. PST |
It's TMP, so you can't mention GW without a wall of complaints. As much as I dislike them, they are still larger than every other miniatures gaming company in the world COMBINED so they must be doing something right. |
BlackWidowPilot | 26 Jul 2014 4:47 p.m. PST |
I already made a big, big order with em4, ordered 24 sprues (already had 12 sprues) of space ships ;-) (and a ton of bases) Oh, so you *do* know better!
My point was that YOU were selling $3.25 USD USD Spirit Riders and complaining about expensive minis from GW infantry models. 1) Production costs reflective of using a third party manufacturer (RAFM). This *always* drives up retail.
2) My point again about "bang for the buck." A single Spirit Rider will last a helluvalot longer than a squad of Imperial Guard once the shooting starts, and we both full well know it. You get more wargaming use and fun out of a single Spirit Rider than a whole unit of WH40K figures, and you need many more such figures to have a viable force to play a single game of WH40K than you do Silent Death: The Next Millennium.
Funny that your lists Infinity, the new 2-player starter is $90 USD USD for 15 (metal) models and stripped rules (as far as I can tell). And if GW were still making metal models, what might a comparable price point be for one of their starter sets…?
The MERCS KS set me back ~$600, sure that got me almost one of everything, but still ;-) LOL!! Well, be happy you *had* $600 USD to throw at yer hobby, Mr. C! Other people's mileage may vary what with having kids to feed and all, which is why I am so adamant about our hobby *not* being a rich man's game (excuse the pun), which is precisely why I don't enable GW's corporate suits with my hard earned cash, but that's just me…
Your also listing sci-fi skirmisch games alongside games that use a lot more then a handful of miniatures. And Warhammer 40K bills itself as which these days? Is it skirmish like the old WH40KRT that could be expanded into a mass battle, or vice-a-verse? Either way, GW's entire focus is to sell you on an image, sell you lots of high priced figures and models, and convince you that in order to be cool, hep, and in style you absolutely positively have to own MOOORRRE of their Product(TM) in order to be one of the cool kids in town and truly play their game(s) as one of the in crowd. Pffft! No thanks. I don't do trend.
The biggest issue is that 40k is the biggest sci-fi miniatures game around. If I would want to play 40k, there are a handful of players in my town (~20,000 people), if I want to play for example Battletech there are a handful of people in my whole country (~17,000,000 people). And we've got circa 330,000,000, so yeah, we've got numbers of people on our side over here in the barbarian wilds of North America, but we don't have the middle class with a disposable income like we used to, so again, this wasn't a rich man's game when I started in this hobby to begin with, and I personally will always fiercely resist the efforts of some like Games Sweatshop to make it so… Regardless, its argumentum ad populam, really, and GW's marketing suits count on each new crop of twelve-year-olds to fall straight into that logic fallacy trap each and every year without fail…
Game systems pretty much extinct in NL: *5150 Star Army *Stargrunt II *Kryomek *MERCS *Mutants and Death Ray Guns *Omega Warrior *Hammer's Slammers Interesting. Are there any indigenous game systems over in you neck of the woods for sci fi miniatures ground combat that have a following?
Had a brief period of popularity, but otherwise in danger of complete extinction: *Tomorrow's War *WarpathFading away: *Infinity See question above.
The big games in the country are: (*Historical wargaming) *40k *Warmachine/Hordes *Star Wars X-Wing *WFB *LotR LotR, X-Wing I understand. GW is understandable given the geography. Historicals the same reason (just more profoundly so). Warmachine/Hordes is a pleasant surprise. That said, I am surprised that there's no indigenous game system that has any following…
Don't get me wrong, there are a TON of other great games out there, I have a some of them in my collection (BT, RL, SD, HG, JC, GK, BS, VoiD, KM, CW, etc.). The only way I would be able to play a lot of those systems is by providing forces on both sides, I have enough minis for most of those systems to do that. But imho that is rather boring and a ton of work for me (have to assemble, clean, base, paint twice as many minis.). I *always* build enough for two sides or more in any system, as I invariably wind up running games at conventions, so having enough to go around is Job #1 for me since circa 1976… plus, I find it a pleasure to do more than one faction or subject, but then again, I'm as much into historicals as I am into sci fi, so go figure…
I spent a ton of money recently to lift my sci-fi space based games to the next level, great gaming mats, advanced bases, etc. But if I wanted to play a sci-fi space ship game right now, I better pick up X-Wing. And I won't stop you, as I said before, if it makes you happy, then it makes you happy. I personally will show up with Silent Death, with enough ships for multiple factions as it only takes circa 2-6 fighters per player, and with newbies it's best to give them a single ship to get started, then graduate them to a wing pair of identical ships, then if they really catch on, a flight of four, and so on.
15mm was popular for a short while, folks got really creative, used Tomorrow's War mostly, but it was pretty much a fad around here (although I'm still assembling forces). And again, I am a bit surprised that it's so fad driven, or that people aren't trying to make use of their 15mm focus to develop their own systems, or adapt them to Warhamster 40K…
Starguard! might be the source, but it died many, many years ago (just like Chainmail for fantasy), now a few people are left playing with a dead body ;-) Starguard! is still in print, the miniatures still in production, and people still buy them for other purposes,as this *is* science fiction after all, and therefore *imagination* is a key element usually in that equation when GW marketing hype doesn't dominate an individual's brain box…
40k has been around for 27 years and still going strong. Do I like everything they have done? Of course NOT! But there's a lot I do like, some of their kits are a great pleasure to put together. Do I like the company and the direction it's going? Of course not, it's a bunch of lemmings running at the abyss. Does that matter? Very little in the grand scheme of things, because if it ever does crash and burn I still have a ton of great minis. See comments above.
In the end I like my plastic and there's very little good plastic in the sci-fi/fantasy 28-32mm scene, GW has the most (Dreamforge has the best). Btw. Good plastic is the hard kind on sprues that you can actually glue with plastic glue. *cough!* *cough!* Hobbylink Japan! *cough!* *cough!*
And while we might get some great deals on GW minis, we're still stuck with to little room to play with (housing cost is very high compared to the US/AU, with a few exceptions ;-) And THAT is a major reason I am so surprised that 15mm sci fi or other games that require fewer figures and smaller playing areas aren't more popular that the visual chaos that is Warhamster 40K Fantasy Bumble (TM). Seriously. It boggles the mind.
Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net |
Cergorach | 27 Jul 2014 3:46 p.m. PST |
Your looking at 'cost of ownership' I'm looking at individual miniature prices. A skirmish game doesn't hold the same 'value' as a large battle game, doesn't mean that one is more fun then the other, just that I know one is more expensive then the other. The plastic vs. metal vs. resin argument is imho in order of desirability. That Infinity is still doing all their stuff in metal is imho a detractor rather then a plus. When smaller younger companies take a bigger risk with going HQ plastic (like Dreamforge or Wyrd) then the older bigger companies (like Corvus Belli or Privateer Press) who still do metal or worse cop-out and do bendy PVC, it's just a big shame. I once said that if MERCS ever went HQ plastic, I would back them 100%. When the KS came and their MERC figures would be HQ plastics I of course backed them all the way. And let's be honest, a year earlier I didn't even have $60 USD to spend on the hobby (political shift + bad economic situation + bad luck + time = no spending money on hobbies). I spend a lot of money on gaming when I actually have the money, I rarely sell stuff I bought for myself, I don't drink/smoke, don't have a car (public transportation all the way!), don't go out, don't have kids or a wife/girlfriend, don't go on vacation, or have any other expensive hobbies (computers are generally a work expense these days). I'm not rich, I'm just the archetype nerd ;-) My image of 40k is still from the Rogue Trader 2E era, when GW wasn't a megalomanic corporation. Eldar are still my favorite, Space Marines are still beakies for me and still want to play Adaptus Titanicus in 28mm scale ;-) I see Warhammer through those rose colored glasses called nostalgia… There are no popular indigenous game systems, I'm sure someone thought something up in the past, especially in historic gaming. But the Netherlands is tiny, those who speak Dutch in the EU are in the Netherlands + half of Belgium, small part of Germany and Luxemburg are maybe 23 million native Dutch speakers, that's a tiny market for miniature wargaming. Especially when we speak/read English from a relative young age (for those of us that aren't complete language morons), we also learn German and French, but not as well as English (I spoke German and French better before high school, they drilled it out of me, luckily I was reading English novels at age 11 LotR, Dune, etc. so that saved it for me). There have been some games that break those rules like HeroQuest/StarQuest/etc and have been translated to Dutch. Things like RPGs we've had the D&D Red Box translated and Das Swartze Auge translated (popular German RPG), the later actually had more expansions because English is still easier for us then German. We generally prefer the English original over the translated Dutch (often translated badly in our opinion). GW has been translating the starter boxes to Dutch for some years, but only the last couple of years also the expansion books, still most gamers prefer the English versions… Chances are that some of those English rules floating around on the net have been written by Dutch gamers. 27 years ago there was only ONE dedicated gaming store that sold sci-fi/fantasy games/minis (Compendium in Amsterdam), even GW stuff was expensive. This was before the Internet and mail order required a Credit Card which almost no one in the Netherlands had at the time. Again, Luckily my dad was a truck driver (mostly nationally), but had colleagues that went to the UK on a regular basis. Sometimes they did my dad a favor and picked up some stuff up for me from a store that was along their route (gave them my money + address + wishlist). My allowance wasn't a lot, it also needed to be shared between my RPG fetish and mini hobbies. So if I wanted to play, I often used cardboard counters or proxies. UK based stuff was expensive, but so was US based stuff and a lot harder to get my hands on (some BT stuff I never got until many years later). With all the space ship stuff I recently ordered you bet your behind that I'll also show up with Silent Death, but that still gives me a ton of work, multiple factions (removing moldlines + painting) and brushing up on the rules so that I can not only play myself, but also teach others… That requires time, dedication and a rather long attention span… It's fad driven because there are still enough people picking up new cool stuff they see on the Internet, but if it doesn't reach a certain kind of critical mass/support then it tends to fade. Some types of games are a bit more flexible then others around here, folks are more creative with the 6mm/15mm gaming and their space ship gaming, mostly because there aren't any strong commercial titles around anymore. So ships from manufacturer X get used in BFG, Firestorm Armada, etc. 15mm sci-fi doesn't get a lot of traction because most of the minis you need to order from the Internet internationally, a lot of the great ones are still located only in the US through direct order. Shipping costs + taxes + import fees make that a long and expensive process and there are still a lot of folks not comfortable with a credit card or PayPal. 6mm is even more room friendly then 15mm and that was a lot bigger when GW was still selling in that scale, because there are a few GW stores in the Netherlands and you could do special orders through them (and pay at the store with cash). Same with BFG, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Mordheim, Warmaster. Especially Necromunda/Mordheim were great/cheap games to get started in 40k/wfb, people still play those and there is the occasional new player, luckily the main ranges provide enough minis to get people to play, it's only the rulebooks that are the problem (but pdf + internet + tablet = win!). Blood Bowl has enough third party producers to keep everyone happy, Warmaster has a few 10mm manufacturers with compatible lines, but few have the quality that GW had. Battle Fleet Ghothic (BFG) is the biggest problem, almost no one produces minis in a similar style. Epic has some alternatives, more everyday. GW still has a long way to go compared to Bandai, both in pricing and complexity of the models. And I'm a customer of HLJ ;-) Don't get me wrong, my GW expenses have been close to zero for a few years now, including the starter sets, I tended to buy a couple of boxes at a discount and sell the parts to pay for the boxes and got left with the extra's (two+ units/box). I've been building my Dark Angel Chapter that way for two years now, add to that the ton of bits I've got from other 40k kits I did the same with… Generally spend money on good deals on second hand GW stuff, the same goes for Warmachine Hordes (1/3 MSRP is me a happy camper). A few years before that I was a lot more flush and the prices a lot better, had a ton of free time and wound up with good deals for new 40k/wfb kits from wayland 25%+ discount (buying in bulk) + really low GW prices in the UK at the time + low EURO to GBP conversion. Helped a lot of folks with relatively cheap GW kits/rulebooks and got myself some free kits in the bargain (splitting up army/starter boxes). These days I spend a lot more on KS then on GW products, good deals, often a better price by default and some awesome ideas. Also spending money on some nostalgic classics like Battletech, Renegade Legion, Silent Death, Noble Armada, Clan Wars, and getting accessories in order like good gaming mats, great bases and very important good mini transport cases (KR Multicase). But in the end, the StormClaw campaign boxed sets were a great deal for me |
Capt Flash | 27 Jul 2014 9:49 p.m. PST |
Hello Leland! Easy there, Tiger! :) And I quote(myself): " I will say that I find the minis are less than desirable for myself." Also see where I posted that I said I got that info from a review here on TMP. Now put that Power Sword down. You're gonna cut yourself, lol. So I can appreciate the value to the hobby made by Starguard, I was speaking for myself regarding my preference. I do in fact like old school minis, mainly from the late eighties through the mid-nineties, but those are definitely not to my liking. Even as a kid, I remember seeing some sculpts of minis and just not liking them. And no one can argue the huge impact GW has had in the miniatures hobby as a whole. And frankly I agree with just about every point you brought up. I am anti GW these days but still buy some of their products. However it's mostly from the secondary market with the exceptions of purchases I make in support of my local store. In fact, I was on the FUBAR and ITEN team, push other games on the different forums and run FUBAR at HAVOC con in Massachusetts almost every year. So then, you can appreciate it a little more that I'm not knocking any of the old school games, just stating my personal preference regarding the minis and what I've read regarding the rules. Regarding simplicity and fun, FUBAR is my personal favorite… <--- personal being the key word here! :-D -Edgar |
Capt Flash | 27 Jul 2014 10:10 p.m. PST |
Oh and as an add-on- my latest 28mm sci-fi project was an "army" of forty Eisenkern troopers and eighty+ Wargames Factory shock troopers. My current projects are Battlestar Galactica space ships and I'm nearing the finish line of five distinct armies for 15mm sci-fi, and having just started gathering up the minis for the 6th army, which will be very Adeptus Astartes in look and flavor. For 15mm sci-fi gaming Fireteam Andromeda, 3rd Edition 40K, Fast and Dirty, and for the absolute biggest games, FUBAR. In 28mm, I'm still pushing Warzone 1st Edition. Coincidentally, one of my buddies bought Stormclaw and is gifting me the rulebook in the hopes I return to the fold, heh heh heh… |
BlackWidowPilot | 28 Jul 2014 7:34 p.m. PST |
Your looking at 'cost of ownership' I'm looking at individual miniature prices. A skirmish game doesn't hold the same 'value' as a large battle game, doesn't mean that one is more fun then the other, just that I know one is more expensive then the other. Um, both SD:TNM and WH40K are 1:1 scale games, where a single figure equals a single person or machine. Where they differ besides the price point is how fast they play as a matter of course, how their mechanics drive player interaction, and how readily real world tactics not beholden to a constantly shifting marketing department's desire to drive figure sales affect actual play and play balance.
The plastic vs. metal vs. resin argument is imho in order of desirability. That Infinity is still doing all their stuff in metal is imho a detractor rather then a plus. When smaller younger companies take a bigger risk with going HQ plastic (like Dreamforge or Wyrd) then the older bigger companies (like Corvus Belli or Privateer Press) who still do metal or worse cop-out and do bendy PVC, it's just a big shame. And others prefer metal to plastic, and the cost outlay for plastics is prohibitive for anyone with less than circa $50,000 USD to spare just to get started.
I once said that if MERCS ever went HQ plastic, I would back them 100%. When the KS came and their MERC figures would be HQ plastics I of course backed them all the way. And let's be honest, a year earlier I didn't even have $60 USD USD to spend on the hobby (political shift + bad economic situation + bad luck + time = no spending money on hobbies). As a 52-year-old starving grad student, I feel your pain…
I spend a lot of money on gaming when I actually have the money, I rarely sell stuff I bought for myself, I don't drink/smoke, don't have a car (public transportation all the way!), don't go out, don't have kids or a wife/girlfriend, don't go on vacation, or have any other expensive hobbies (computers are generally a work expense these days). I'm not rich, I'm just the archetype nerd ;-) I was a nerd/geek/etc. long before it was ever fashionable. This is probably why I still kit bash so much of my vehicle and large starship needs away rather than spring for dedicated models, even when the spare change is available… plus being a family man and grandfather doesn't help break me of that habit I first acquired in the 1970s playing Starguard! when only figures were available, and if you wanted a tank, you had to buy a 1/72 scale WW2 tank model and start gluing bits of plasticard and spare model car parts on the thing to get a death-dealin' future tank to fry alien scum with laser cannons blazing! My image of 40k is still from the Rogue Trader 2E era, when GW wasn't a megalomanic corporation. Eldar are still my favorite, Space Marines are still beakies for me and still want to play Adaptus Titanicus in 28mm scale ;-) I see Warhammer through those rose colored glasses called nostalgia… Rogue Trade ris 1st editon. 2nd is the point that Games Workshop became "Games Sweatshop" in my book….
There are no popular indigenous game systems, I'm sure someone thought something up in the past, especially in historic gaming. But the Netherlands is tiny, those who speak Dutch in the EU are in the Netherlands + half of Belgium, small part of Germany and Luxemburg are maybe 23 million native Dutch speakers, that's a tiny market for miniature wargaming. Especially when we speak/read English from a relative young age (for those of us that aren't complete language morons), we also learn German and French, but not as well as English (I spoke German and French better before high school, they drilled it out of me, luckily I was reading English novels at age 11 LotR, Dune, etc. so that saved it for me). 23 million? Go get 'em, I say!
There have been some games that break those rules like HeroQuest/StarQuest/etc and have been translated to Dutch. Things like RPGs we've had the D&D Red Box translated and Das Swartze Auge translated (popular German RPG), the later actually had more expansions because English is still easier for us then German. We generally prefer the English original over the translated Dutch (often translated badly in our opinion). GW has been translating the starter boxes to Dutch for some years, but only the last couple of years also the expansion books, still most gamers prefer the English versions… Chances are that some of those English rules floating around on the net have been written by Dutch gamers. And I say y'all need to cook up some indigenous rules whether in Dutch or English or Swahili if need be, just 'cause you *can*….
27 years ago there was only ONE dedicated gaming store that sold sci-fi/fantasy games/minis (Compendium in Amsterdam), even GW stuff was expensive. This was before the Internet and mail order required a Credit Card which almost no one in the Netherlands had at the time. Again, Luckily my dad was a truck driver (mostly nationally), but had colleagues that went to the UK on a regular basis. Sometimes they did my dad a favor and picked up some stuff up for me from a store that was along their route (gave them my money + address + wishlist). My allowance wasn't a lot, it also needed to be shared between my RPG fetish and mini hobbies. So if I wanted to play, I often used cardboard counters or proxies. UK based stuff was expensive, but so was US based stuff and a lot harder to get my hands on (some BT stuff I never got until many years later).With all the space ship stuff I recently ordered you bet your behind that I'll also show up with Silent Death, but that still gives me a ton of work, multiple factions (removing moldlines + painting) and brushing up on the rules so that I can not only play myself, but also teach others… That requires time, dedication and a rather long attention span… FYI on the Silent Death front, we're (1) damn near ready to post the revised Night brood ship display sheets for playtesting, and (2) among the punch list projects before year's end is going to be a tutorial on how to paint SD:TNM ship minis quickly and efficiently, from prep stage to finished and detailed models, including how to plan, where to draw inspiration, and how to use waterside decals. We're even investigating dedicated decal sheets of House insignia for The Twelve, plus the Karelian Republic and House Falstaff. Dedication is paying off for those of us who stuck with this particular classic…
It's fad driven because there are still enough people picking up new cool stuff they see on the Internet, but if it doesn't reach a certain kind of critical mass/support then it tends to fade. Some types of games are a bit more flexible then others around here, folks are more creative with the 6mm/15mm gaming and their space ship gaming, mostly because there aren't any strong commercial titles around anymore. So ships from manufacturer X get used in BFG, Firestorm Armada, etc. As it should be IMHO. That's the beauty of sci fi or fantasy; it's only limited by your imagination….
15mm sci-fi doesn't get a lot of traction because most of the minis you need to order from the Internet internationally, a lot of the great ones are still located only in the US through direct order. Shipping costs + taxes + import fees make that a long and expensive process and there are still a lot of folks not comfortable with a credit card or PayPal. Hmmm… sounds to me like you all need to put your good heads together, and see about creating your own Dutch-centric line… ya see, I'm shameless, so I say Oscar Wilde was right, so I see no good reason why Dutch gamers can't cook up a fun set of sci-fi rules set in a future history where Holland has managed to reassert herself as a colonial power *in* *space* with all of the (mis)adventures great or small that go along with such a process… I mean, if Nicholas van Rin can found and run The Solar Spice & Liquor Company, what's holding all of you lot back?! 6mm is even more room friendly then 15mm and that was a lot bigger when GW was still selling in that scale, because there are a few GW stores in the Netherlands and you could do special orders through them (and pay at the store with cash). Same with BFG, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Mordheim, Warmaster. Especially Necromunda/Mordheim were great/cheap games to get started in 40k/wfb, people still play those and there is the occasional new player, luckily the main ranges provide enough minis to get people to play, it's only the rulebooks that are the problem (but pdf + internet + tablet = win!). Blood Bowl has enough third party producers to keep everyone happy, Warmaster has a few 10mm manufacturers with compatible lines, but few have the quality that GW had. Battle Fleet Ghothic (BFG) is the biggest problem, almost no one produces minis in a similar style. Epic has some alternatives, more everyday. See my comments above…
GW still has a long way to go compared to Bandai, both in pricing and complexity of the models. I have the Gamilas Ship Set #2, and yes, I WILL figure out a way to use the S-class battleship in SD:TNM if it kills me…
And I'm a customer of HLJ ;-) That's 'cause you're *smart,* Mr. C.
Don't get me wrong, my GW expenses have been close to zero for a few years now, including the starter sets, I tended to buy a couple of boxes at a discount and sell the parts to pay for the boxes and got left with the extra's (two+ units/box). I've been building my Dark Angel Chapter that way for two years now, add to that the ton of bits I've got from other 40k kits I did the same with… Generally spend money on good deals on second hand GW stuff, the same goes for Warmachine Hordes (1/3 MSRP is me a happy camper). A few years before that I was a lot more flush and the prices a lot better, had a ton of free time and wound up with good deals for new 40k/wfb kits from wayland 25%+ discount (buying in bulk) + really low GW prices in the UK at the time + low EURO to GBP conversion. Helped a lot of folks with relatively cheap GW kits/rulebooks and got myself some free kits in the bargain (splitting up army/starter boxes). Gang up and work cooperatively. Works every time. Seriously.
These days I spend a lot more on KS then on GW products, good deals, often a better price by default and some awesome ideas. Also spending money on some nostalgic classics like Battletech, Renegade Legion, Silent Death, Noble Armada, Clan Wars, and getting accessories in order like good gaming mats, great bases and very important good mini transport cases (KR Multicase). Yes, KS has its temptations. Like you, I am focused these days on mats, bases, and storage/carrying cases. In my case, there's over 35 years of accumulated figures, models, and terrain to sort out, cull down in some cases, and plan completion of other projects.
But in the end, the StormClaw campaign boxed sets were a great deal for me For you, yes. Other's mileage clearly has varied.
Leland R. Erickson MetalE xpress metal-express.net |
BlackWidowPilot | 28 Jul 2014 7:57 p.m. PST |
Hello Leland! Easy there, Tiger! :)
No. And I quote(myself): " I will say that I find the minis are less than desirable for myself." Also see where I posted that I said I got that info from a review here on TMP. I read that review when it was first posted. Not everyone's cup of tea as I expected, but then again, Warhamster 40K hasn't been my own cup of tea since WH40K Rogue Trader was replaced by the 2nd. Edition Kiddie Play graphics… Now put that Power Sword down. You're gonna cut yourself, lol. No. It's a Variable sword, and I *do* know how to use it…
So I can appreciate the value to the hobby made by Starguard, I was speaking for myself regarding my preference. I do in fact like old school minis, mainly from the late eighties through the mid-nineties, but those are definitely not to my liking. Even as a kid, I remember seeing some sculpts of minis and just not liking them. By the late 80s the larger British style of 28mm figures had already begun to garner more interest than the older style of 25mm or 1/72 scale minis, especially for the visual impact. By the late 80s we've got WH40K and the Grenadier Traveller Imperial Marines from Traveller, plus the first Future Wars figures showing up IIRC. The bigger figures were/are easier to paint in many cases, and as every scale modeler knows, the larger the scale, the more detail one can put into a single subject.
And no one can argue the huge impact GW has had in the miniatures hobby as a whole. Have they now? I suspect that their persisting in trying to pretend that they and they alone are The Games Workshop Hobby (TM) and nothing else existed before The Games Workshop Hobby (TM) and nothing exists outside of The Games Workshop Hobby (TM) is not going to serve them in the long run, nor does it contribute to the larger community directly except perhaps by default (and clearly, only begrudgingly).
And frankly I agree with just about every point you brought up. I am anti GW these days but still buy some of their products. However it's mostly from the secondary market with the exceptions of purchases I make in support of my local store. If I want to support my local store, the beauty for me anyway is that there is so much else to choose from at Game Kastle or Legends that I don't have to drop a single red cent on "Games Sweatshop" "product (TM)" for any reason whatsoever. Frankly, if they've done anything for the community as a whole, it is to turn themselves into such a caricature of themselves that all the rest of the community looks so much more interesting, creative, inviting, and above all, fun.
In fact, I was on the FUBAR and ITEN team, push other games on the different forums and run FUBAR at HAVOC con in Massachusetts almost every year. So then, you can appreciate it a little more that I'm not knocking any of the old school games, just stating my personal preference regarding the minis and what I've read regarding the rules. Regarding simplicity and fun, FUBAR is my personal favorite… <--- personal being the key word here! :-D -Edgar What I said:
"But seriously, if that's not your cup of tea and you prefer the larger 28mm "scale" figures of Games Sweatshop and don't care about how much money you spend per figure (or live where you can get a deal like Mr. C above), then more power to you! As for rules, that's the real pleasure of this genre IMHO; we're not tied to any one rules system or background." So Edgar, FUBAR away with my blessing. Just don't ever tell me to put down my Variable Sword, and yes, I was in fact born in The Year of the Tiger… seriously.
Leland R. Erickson MetalE xpress metal-express.net |
BlackWidowPilot | 28 Jul 2014 8:03 p.m. PST |
Oh and as an add-on- my latest 28mm sci-fi project was an "army" of forty Eisenkern troopers and eighty+ Wargames Factory shock troopers. My current projects are Battlestar Galactica space ships and I'm nearing the finish line of five distinct armies for 15mm sci-fi, and having just started gathering up the minis for the 6th army, which will be very Adeptus Astartes in look and flavor. For 15mm sci-fi gaming Fireteam Andromeda, 3rd Edition 40K, Fast and Dirty, and for the absolute biggest games, FUBAR. In 28mm, I'm still pushing Warzone 1st Edition. Coincidentally, one of my buddies bought Stormclaw and is gifting me the rulebook in the hopes I return to the fold, heh heh heh… Silent Death Night Brood ships as we get ready to start playtesting in earnest the revised Night Brood, assorted 15mm sci fi for Tomorrow's War *and* playtesting our own sci fi ground combat rules set in the SD:TNM universe known as Terran Space, various and sundry kitbashing projects for my Etsy shop and other destinations, assorted Metal Magic Space Lords figures as well for the playtesting effort in light of EM4 bringing these classic sci fi figures back to us, plus trying to figure out how I am going to get my hands on various 20mm WW2 Early War French light tanks to finish off my DLM demi brigade, and so on… oh, and there's a squad of Imperial Guard I acquired for free a number of years ago, essentially abandoned at a local store so I gave them a new home to add to my original WH40K RT Imperial *Army* company, just for yuks.
Leland R. Erickson MetalE xpress metal-express.net |
Capt Flash | 29 Jul 2014 9:21 p.m. PST |
Well, Tigers and Monkeys(as represented by The Monkey King) are known to clash… :) I'm just glad I'm right. You enjoy your games and I enjoy mine. |
TwinMirror | 30 Jul 2014 6:22 a.m. PST |
Well, this has been about as comprehensive a discussion of the industry, GW, and gaming styles in general, as I've ever read on TMP, so thanks to all contributors for making this such as fun read! My own stance is pretty much the same as Leland's – I constantly convert, kitbash, and generally assemble my minis based on the fact that I like them and they're reasonably priced, not part of some corporate rip-off venture. My friends and I use, tinker with and freely adapt published games, and more often than not, write (and rewrite) our own gaming systems whenever the mood strikes us. I have kids and a limited budget, and certainly don't have the funds for GW style gaming (or Infinity, for that matter), but in fact, I prefer scouring the web for unusual and interesting minis at an affordable price. I find a cool faction or figure,and it inspires me to come up with a new alien race, new rules or scenarios. Not wanting to sound snobby about it, but I think ecclecticism, thrift and creativity are their own virtues, and certainly a ones from which the whole hobby/proffession began – even citadel miniatures, back in the day! That was, after all, the spirit in which 1st ed. Rogue Trader was written – still far and away the best version of 40K, IMHO- adaptable, open, usable for skirmishes, big battles and rpgs – ok, so it's pretty slow for big battles, but you know where I'm coming from. I'm not anti-GW, however, and do pick up some sprues now and then on the secondary market- which can be had for a good price sometimes – but I'd feel horribly restricted and ripped off playing 40k or other exclusive, whole-owned sytems that proscribe precisely what I must and cannot use in my games. |
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