Winston Smith | 14 Jul 2014 9:07 p.m. PST |
Can things get any better for Wargamers? Is there any period not covered by excellent figures or rules? And if they are not , is it not highly probable that they will be soon ? Sure, there are some gaps. On the past it was obvious they would remain gaps. Today… Some eccentric gamer who shared your interests (or you yourself) is capable of commissioning a totally new (and excellent !) line to fill that gap. |
Bashytubits | 14 Jul 2014 9:41 p.m. PST |
When you have more gold than age, that's when its really good. |
Knight of St John | 14 Jul 2014 10:29 p.m. PST |
Yes. With the Perrys plastic war of the Roses range. Their old Foundry Boer War range. Plus two sixteenth century ranges coming soon from Warlord Games and Khurisan Miniatures I don't think I will be wanting any thing else. |
GarrisonMiniatures | 15 Jul 2014 1:58 a.m. PST |
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Yesthatphil | 15 Jul 2014 2:04 a.m. PST |
Golden Age was about 15 years ago … but the afterglow keeps everyone fairly warm and comfortable. Phil
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passiveaggressive | 15 Jul 2014 2:32 a.m. PST |
Definitely. The 28mm plastic figure explosion has transformed the hobby, made periods accessible for less money and encouraged in more kids because they can be sold in model/toy shops. |
Texas Jack | 15 Jul 2014 2:46 a.m. PST |
It won΄t be the Golden Age until I can get an M2 medium tank in 10mm. |
(Phil Dutre) | 15 Jul 2014 3:09 a.m. PST |
50 years from now, our successors will laugh at the limited amount of periods and ranges we have at our disposal. "Haha, those guys back then! They thought '44-'45 Westfront was a single period. Luckily we now have the ranges to distinguish between June '44 and July '44, and the rules to support those important differences. And they still had a limited amount of scales. With current 3d-ultra-uber-zooming-printers we can now print figures in a continuum of scales. Thank god those primitive wargaming days are over!" |
DsGilbert | 15 Jul 2014 6:06 a.m. PST |
I agree with Yesthatphil. I think video gaming has taken a huge bite out of traditional miniature gaming. The game stores that are near me are pretty much Games Workshop, Heroclix,X-Wing,Magic,and WarMachine. They do have a day of the week that has historical, but it's usually the same 5 or 6 guys and the periods are pretty limited. When I started hardcore gamimg in the 1990's I could find groups that would meet regularly at game stores and you could play pretty much everything. |
saltflats1929 | 15 Jul 2014 6:12 a.m. PST |
Yes but there's still platinum. |
OSchmidt | 15 Jul 2014 6:19 a.m. PST |
Let me put this in perspective. 1. Anytime you wake up on the right side of the grass it's a good day and a part of the golden age. 2. Computer games, Fantasy Games,board games are irrelevant. Historical miniatures gaming is stronger than ever. Maybe not where YOU are, but follow the money. We have more figures, more rules, more books, more periods, more terrain, more of everything since I started in 1962 and it keeps going at a steady rate. The computer games, and the Battleballpeen and the clix fads come and go and kids cut into the hobby on them, but eventually the megalomania sets in and they follow the precepts of our father below (It is better to rule in hell than serve in haven" and that's when we get em! All hot bothered, and lathered up for hisotircals. I've been hearing that "the hobby is dying" and "Fantasy Games are going to swamp the hobby!" "Board games are going to destroy miniatures!" and the whole "fin-de-siθcle /After me the deluge/" talk since I got into the hobby and it's what I call "Deja-Moo!" Meaning I've heard this bull before. There are people who weren't even BORN when I began putting on games and now crying in their beer the same way! You make your own "Golden Age" Otto |
Ashurman | 15 Jul 2014 6:21 a.m. PST |
My guess is it will be called the silver age…we have greater choice and quality (rules, games, terrain and figures) in a greater number of periods and fantasy/science fiction "universes" than ever before, including in the world(s) of electronics – somewhat countered by the inevitable effects of so much choice that we can and do go off in hundreds of different directions at once. The only things that might make it better are, however, on the horizon – finding opponents more easily through social media, possibly more personal time for it all, and infinite levels of "artistic" satisfaction and choice through the use of creation-on-demand devices that may make it possible to create everything in every color combination imaginable. Of course, that does depend on… |
etotheipi | 15 Jul 2014 6:29 a.m. PST |
I have more available things that I want to do than things that I could possibly do … so, yes. Also, the excess of things I can do is larger than the things I want to do, but can't. Golden Age: Projected Lifespan << Time(Hobby Tasks) Today is the first day of the remainder of your life. |
wminsing | 15 Jul 2014 6:52 a.m. PST |
We have more figures, more rules, more books, more periods, more terrain, more of everything since I started in 1962 and it keeps going at a steady rate. 100% agree with this; there wouldn't be the massive, frankly ridiculous, number of ranges and supporting material still being produced and continually added to if the hobby wasn't going strong. -Will |
DsGilbert | 15 Jul 2014 7:04 a.m. PST |
First we need to define what golden age means. I base mine off comics, when sales (profits) and expansion (publishers of a legal entity) and creativity (new characters/titles) were at its peak. When it comes to miniature gaming, I don't see it. Yes, there maybe updated WWII rules, but WWII rules are not a new idea. How are convention numbers? I would need to see hard data in order to make a true determination. I can only go off what I have seen from my travels across the US, which I agree isn't scientific. For me personally, I have had to settle on WH40k as I cannot find people who want to invest in other games and genres. Wargaming will never die, but when you start saying things like "Golden Age" that means the peak of the industry. I think that was a while ago. Once again, I would need to see hard data over the last 50 years to determine when the golden age truly was. |
DsGilbert | 15 Jul 2014 7:16 a.m. PST |
"there wouldn't be the massive, frankly ridiculous, number of ranges and supporting material still being produced and continually added to if the hobby wasn't going strong." Actually, if your lines were stagnate, then you would start producing new lines in order to find the line that will produce interest and cash. Are the original lines that the company produced increasing or are they played out and all they are doing now is updating the lines? |
GeneralRetreat | 15 Jul 2014 7:37 a.m. PST |
In terms of finding out about and purchasing wargames "stuff" it is far easier since the advent of the internet. Anybody with a slight curiosity can now dip their toes and I would like to think that has had to have had a positive effect. On the minus side the internet has also meant the demise of traditional shops, but the plus side is the huge range of merchandise available and the opportunity to meet up with other gamers. How many manufacturers of historical wargames stuff exist now compared with previous ages? That might give an indication if the hobby is gaining a wider audience or shrinking ( assuming they are similarly sized, obviously ) |
wminsing | 15 Jul 2014 7:43 a.m. PST |
Actually, if your lines were stagnate, then you would start producing new lines in order to find the line that will produce interest and cash. Are the original lines that the company produced increasing or are they played out and all they are doing now is updating the lines? It's both, though; the number of different lines is increasing and the size/scope of individual lines is often increasing. The hobby wouldn't be able to support both forms of expansion without the demand also staying strong. -Will |
JimDuncanUK | 15 Jul 2014 7:46 a.m. PST |
I'll be happy when I can afford a 3-D wargames printing machine where I can tap in a few parameters, scale, no of figs, period, regiment, base size and the following morning get a painted, based and flocked unit, fully coloured and ready to go. |
wminsing | 15 Jul 2014 7:51 a.m. PST |
I base mine off comics, when sales (profits) and expansion (publishers of a legal entity) and creativity (new characters/titles) were at its peak. Also I going to have to quibble with your definition; the 'Golden Age' of comics only meets the second criteria, and then only in the number of publishers present, not their size. The highest total sales and greatest era of creativity was definitely the 'Silver Age' of comics. -Will |
OSchmidt | 15 Jul 2014 7:59 a.m. PST |
One more thing. We ARE historical gamers. There is only a finite number of so many periods and wars and genre's to be in. We not only have all those we have Sci-Fi versions of those, Imagi-Nations versions of those, "Zombie" versions of those, and Sci-Fi- Zombie Imagi-Nations of those, and Sci-Fi-Zombie-spam, spam, spam, spam versions of those. We even have such things as "The Chaco-War," the Guano Wars, and half a dozen other periods so arcane it boggles the mind. How much more do you want? How many figures do you want in each of these? This is why "Old School" has become popular. We look back at those wunnerfull wunnerfull games in "War Games" and realize and remember how much fun they were, and we never quibbled that we were using our Jebusites for Hivites, our Marcusites for Perezites, and our Stalagtites for Stalagmites. How much more golden can it get? |
MH Dee | 15 Jul 2014 8:26 a.m. PST |
Over the past couple of years I've been able to walk into two Model Shops in town (Belfast) and buy Warlord Games, Perry, Gripping Beast, Wargames Factory, Agema, PSC, Battlefront etc boxes and blisters. And I have picked up Osprey rules / Army list books in Waterstones and WH Smiths. The very idea of buying a set of Napoleonics Rules in a high street booksellers, or FOG Army Lists in a chain newsagent, still makes me smile. Never thought I would see that day, after spending so many years entirely dependent on mail order. I appreciate it's not the same everywhere, but Belfast? |
etotheipi | 15 Jul 2014 8:55 a.m. PST |
First we need to define what golden age means. … we are on the precipice of a decadent decline into chaos and destruction? We ARE historical gamers. Not all of us. There is only a finite number of so many periods and wars and genre's to be in. Right now, yes, but take heart … your fellow homo sapiens are making more and more every day! spam, spam, spam versions of those But we also have things with no historical parallel. I am always an advocate for remembering "There is no new thing under the Sun." But at some point the parallels become so abstract and emergent qualities from mixing becomes so dominant that it really is a new thing. How much more do you want? More. :) |
Trebian | 15 Jul 2014 9:29 a.m. PST |
I think "silver age" is a good description, based on the hair colour of the majority of wargamers. I do not see the evidence of new players joining the hobby. Those of us who have wargamed for 30 years are now at the stage of our lives where we can afford to spend more on the hobby than when we started, and generally speaking the West is more affluent, so we can spend more on hobbies than ever before generally. It's the increase in the amount of cash now available that supports the number of companies, and that's not the same as an increase in the number of wargamers. As for it being a golden age because more rules are published….well, I've bought my fair share over the years, but I don't see a lot of originality in mechanisms or type of game coming into the hobby. We place a lot more importance on the ability to paint than on the ability to design interesting games. Not that I'd want to go back to waiting for Airfix to release it's next box and wondering what I could convert them into. |
Timotheous | 15 Jul 2014 10:24 a.m. PST |
If the breadth of choice is the measure of the golden age, then yes, we are definitely in the golden age of miniature wargaming, for all the reasons Otto has mentioned. The plethora of new periods and rules, and their ready availability has presented us with the challenge of how to sift through all these choices. The only limit to what we can accomplish with our hobby seems to be the time we have left to spend on it. Deciding to ditch certain parts of one's collection, or pull back from the hobby for a time is not a "fin-de-siecle", but a decision to focus on the things (even those outside the hobby) which we enjoy. Having these choices is a very good thing. |
Timotheous | 15 Jul 2014 10:26 a.m. PST |
@ Etohepi-Ecclesiastes 1:9 |
Who asked this joker | 15 Jul 2014 10:28 a.m. PST |
I think "silver age" is a good description, based on the hair colour of the majority of wargamers. Historical miniatures gaming is stronger than ever. Maybe not where YOU are, but follow the money. We have more figures, more rules, more books, more periods, more terrain, more of everything since I started in 1962 and it keeps going at a steady rate. Seemingly diametrically opposed statements but maybe not. The hobby is graying at an alarming rate…at least where I am. However, with age comes more money and better spending power. I'd argue that the new shiny is also more expensive and better products than those of yesterday. They ultimately can replace yesterday's product if one chooses and often one WILL choose. I have no doubt that the hobby is expanding a little but the products are expanding at a much more rapid rate. |
Weasel | 15 Jul 2014 10:57 a.m. PST |
The internet has blown it wide open. I can buy miniatures from a guy in England, have them painted by a kid in Taiwan, terrain from a lady in Poland and rules from a sentient lifeform in Canada, then put it all on my gaming table in the United States (presently). Then when I'm done, I'll tell people on the internet about how the game went and people from Denmark, France and Texas will tell me it sounded cool. |
Timotheous | 15 Jul 2014 11:17 a.m. PST |
Weasel, well said! World-wide distribution of our hobby is incredible! |
Trebian | 15 Jul 2014 11:28 a.m. PST |
Who asked this joker? The two statements aren't diametrically opposed as you say. We're spending more per head, rather than having more heads spending. As for Weasals comments…well the internet allows me to spend even more time talking toot about the hobby than actually doing it without leaving the comfort of my own home. Wait, I can even talk toot when I'm out on my smart phone. Trebian |
Yesthatphil | 15 Jul 2014 12:05 p.m. PST |
I accept many of the statements made above however I wouldn't define a golden age purely in terms of how many things there are for me to buy the fact that 'the hobby' (if such a thing exists my leisure interests are by no means the same as a big chunk of TMP) is so commercially driven (or so it seems) is by no means a universal positive. Some like their leisure 'off the shelf', some don't . Some like glossy picture book rules, some like homegrown share arounds If you are inspired by the hunt to find and/or make the things you need for your idiosyncratic wargame and like to do that with rules you and your buddies have developed yourselves the fact that you can now buy all that ready made in a shiny pack might not tick any Golden Age boxes for you at all … Phil My guess is most of us are a mix nostalgic for the DIY hobby of our teens but occasionally thrilled by today's beautiful products … |
Doug em4miniatures | 15 Jul 2014 12:20 p.m. PST |
I'm almost sure this exact question has been raised here by a wrinkly old sage called Johnthesomething or other. If you can track him down, Winston, I'm sure he'll be glad to share the feedback he had when he asked the question. On the other hand, I may have imagined it. Doug |
Trebian | 15 Jul 2014 12:29 p.m. PST |
Phil, I think it is true that you only know a Golden Age when it has passed. If, in 30 years, people get as misty eyed about a re-print of "Hail Caesar" as we do now about DF's "Wargames" then perhaps it is. I wait to be convinced. Trebian |
Weasel | 15 Jul 2014 1:06 p.m. PST |
That's the thing though: Absolutely nothing stops you from writing your own stuff with your mates. Only now, those mates can be anywhere in the world. That'd be like saying that you can't play guitar in your garage because we have Spotify. If anything, today is the perfect age for homebrew games, since you can share them with anyone you damn well want, get input and see the cool ideas other people come up with.
A long time ago, I saw an idea I had come up with show up in another game, complete with an attribution to the game I had written and I thought "hey, that's pretty neat". |
Who asked this joker | 15 Jul 2014 1:14 p.m. PST |
We're spending more per head What I was aiming at. The second statement perhaps I did not capture what the OP was trying to say. He is saying that the hobby is not graying. His evidence is that products are ever increasing so someone or many someones must be buying them. Perhaps I should have cut and pasted more or maybe I misunderstood! I suspect we get bored, buy something new, play that a while, get bored, buy something new… Silver hairs with deep pockets I say! |
Weasel | 15 Jul 2014 1:52 p.m. PST |
Well, it can't both be that "40K/War Machine/Flames of War is only for kids" AND "the hobby is all old people" :) |
Who asked this joker | 15 Jul 2014 9:23 p.m. PST |
Well, it can't both be that "40K/War Machine/Flames of War is only for kids" AND "the hobby is all old people" :) Stop confusing us with the facts…and get off my lawn! |
Weasel | 15 Jul 2014 11:53 p.m. PST |
The revolution is here old man! :) |
Winston Smith | 16 Jul 2014 4:50 a.m. PST |
First we need to define what golden age means.
There's one in every crowd, hainna? Some seem to think that we have to define pulp , Golden Age, fun, skirmish, everything and anything. What's wrong with "It means what I want it to mean!"? |
Winston Smith | 16 Jul 2014 4:57 a.m. PST |
Most of our local Flames of War group are in their 50s and 60s. |
Yesthatphil | 16 Jul 2014 5:29 a.m. PST |
The most populous age range in the UK is age 40-49 … in that sense all activities are greying … generally, today, grey folk outnumber youngsters in a way they didn't in the 1970s*. Given the leisure wargame (amateur wargame, as Peter Young dubbed it) really took off in the 60s and 70s, it shouldn't surprise us that so many wargamers are of a similar age. It's a baby boom activity and has survived rather well. I'm not sure greying has anything to do with whether we are enjoying a Golden Age, though – as Treb says, you'll probably only know that when you look back on it … Phil *in 1911, the population/age map is almost pyramidal, the youngest outnumbering the oldest and % by age dropping as people get older. Today it is more balloon-like with millions of middle aged and 60 somethings swelling the ranks .. |
etotheipi | 16 Jul 2014 6:41 a.m. PST |
What's wrong with "It means what I want it to mean!"? For your own personal use, nothing. For societal interaction, you need a common consensus understanding (not necessarily a formal definition) for discussion. The other option is chaotic convergence – people working from their own definitions and conflicts and inconsistencies on the discussion defining what you are talking about. Not a good way to have meaningful, efficient engagement, but it is a good technique for arriving at consensus in some environments. That aside, I think your three questions at the top of the OP are sufficient to "define" what you meant by "Golden Age" for the purposes of yakity-yaking. Least 'round these parts. |
(Phil Dutre) | 16 Jul 2014 6:53 a.m. PST |
"Golden Age" is, IMO, always a mixture of the state of the hobby in one's own gaming circle, a good dose of nostalgia, and a sense that the nature of the hobby has changed. When one starts out as a new wargamer, there is always the thrill of discovering so many new things. Every visit to a store, a website, a convention, yields something new and it is easy to confuse your personal path of discovery with the idea that the hobby is evolving at the same pace at which you are discovering it. The veteran wargamer already has seen it all he is not surprised or thrilled that easily by something new ("Such and so already did this in 1972"), and he tends to think with nostalgia about the "golden old days" in which the hobby was much more fun (his perspective). However, a new wargamer starting today will go through the same sense of discovery as someone who started out in the 60s, 80s, or 2000s. Also, the nature of the hobby has changed still within the lifetime of many wargamers alive today. That also is part of the sense that "the hobby isn't what it used to be", and hence that "the golden days are behind us". Wargamers in the 60s were still building the hobby. They had to write the rules, cast the figures, make so many new discoveries and inventing new concepts. They were literally wargamer-builders, and wargaming was more about building your own game, rather than playing someone else's. Most wargamers today are wargamer-consumers. They buy and play what is available. When a new ruleset is published today, the first question asked often is: "Where are the official figures, and when will the army lists be available?". A wargamer-builder doesn't care he makes or writes the missing components himself. A wargamer-consumer waits till they become available, and if not, he switches to another game. This shift from building the hobby to consuming is hobby is quite natural when the number of hobbyists is growing. However, it also changes the nature of the hobby, and if one has been active for a long time, it may not be a change one likes. Indeed, most gamers tend to think about what drew them into the hobby in the first place, and that is mostly the hobby as it existed back then. One sees something similar with alumni from universities. The 4 or 5 years when they were on campus, are always the "golden standard" against which every reform in the programs or campus life is measured. If things only would go back to the time when THEY were at school, then everything would be ok, and all problems would magically be solved. Of course, their memories have been filtered over time, and even so, if their argument would hold true, then we would still teach the same way as the Greeks did 3000 years ago. The growing interest in "old-school-wargaming" is a symtpom of this changing nature of the hobby, with people trying to capture the spirit they liked so much when they started out (again, often rosy-coloured memories, involving endless summers and the lack of any responsabilities as a teenager or college-student). Originally, old-school-wargaming for some revolved very much around the rules published in the 60s and 70s (Grant etc.), but now we also have old-school-warhammer ("Oldhammer"), that tries to capture the spirit of fantasy wargaming as it was in the 80s. I guess there is not much overlap between those two groups, but they are a token that any generation wants to relive its own golden days. See also old-school-roleplaying with all their retro-clones for roleplaying games publsihed in the 70s and 80s for very much the same phenomenon. So, Golden Age? Who cares really? As long as we are having fun today, anything goes :-) |
Early morning writer | 18 Jul 2014 12:35 p.m. PST |
first, I'm confused, they've actually identified sentience in Canada!? A wondrous universe, surely. And Golden Age? Surely you meant to say Amalgamated Tin Age. Surely? Before I go, regarding the graying (or greying) of the hobby: certainly is true amongst those I game with and at the local conventions – often the same folks. But here's the rub, that means nothing because traditionally younger folk are averse to hanging out with gray hairs. We're nothing but an overweight, over-opinionated, over-financed bunch of fuddy-duddys (or whatever them young "whipper-snappers" call us these days). Besides we are intimidating. And, for a substantial portion of those youngsters, our curves are very decidedly in the wrong places. I'm pretty sure the younger historical gamers have their own private world where they live in dread we might find out where they are and come to visit or, the horror, the horror, want to stick around and play. Then what chance will they have with the preferred curvature crowd? (and, please, no one break it to them about their chances with the truly preferred curvaceous ones are less, much less, of rolling 18 on two d6 in a single roll, no re-rolls allowed; they'd be devastated) caveat – I'm not saying any of the physical descriptions apply to me, naturally, but you lot, well, the less said, the better so… |