"Which German tank for N.Africa in 28mm?" Topic

Currently for my 28 mm North Africa games I have for the Germans two each of 222s, Pz II Es, Pz III Gs (37 mm gun) and a Pz IV E. As I continue to learn more about the desert war it appears that the Panzer III J was perhaps the most common German tank that the Afrika Korps had at hand. What are your thoughts or more learned comments. I realize that what I currently have reflects the earlier stages of the DAK's arrival in the desert. I am looking to run some later scenarios and hence the reason for the query.

The single most numerous tank was the Panzer III G/H/J with a 50L42 gun. Even later in the campaign the J/L/M with 50L60 was in a minority.

I'm not sure DAK ever used 37mm armed Pz IIIs apart from as command tanks.

I'm not sure DAK ever used 37mm armed Pz IIIs apart from as command tanks.

They were shipped initially with the 37mm gun. They were almost immediately upgunned in the desert. It was really a timing thing. The upgrade was coming but there was not enough time to perform them before the tanks were shipped.

As stated already, most of the tanks were 5cm L42 guns. The 5cm L60 guns were being fitted sometime in 1942…the later stages of the desert campaign.

If you are doing late campaign scenarios, the PZIV F2 is quite appropriate.

Were I to build an Afrika Korps force I would include PzIIBs and Cs, PzIIIGs and PzIVDs for the earlier part of the campaign. For later operations I would add PzIIFs, PzIIIJs (50L60) and PzIVEs, F1s and F2s.
For Panzer Armee Afrika I'd be tempted to exclude any PzIIIs with 50L42s and PzIVs with 75L24s. I would add PzIIIs with 75L24s. I think those are PzIIIN. And add a few Tiger Is.
Of course, this is just a list of tanks. I would also include plenty of armored cars and SP guns.
The above is what I included in my old micro armor collection. Along with all the rest. I had a huge collection enabling me to field forces from Poland through the fighting in Berlin. All sold off now.
Might I be so bold as to recommend that you should buy some forces for the North African campaign in 15/18mm? I've been using such for experiments with what I have available for the new Bolt Action armor platoon rules. My games of this sort have been restricted to the summer of '41 on the Eastern Front. I've found this to be a more satisfying scale for BA in many ways.
I'm not saying you should cast aside your 28mm stuff. I haven't. It just seems that the 28s are better for infantry centric games. While the 15s serve better where numbers of tanks above one are concerned.
Thus my two cents…

General Fritz Bayerlein wrote the chapter on the North African winter campaign (1941-42) in The Rommel Papers because during that period of the war Rommel was so busy he did not keep up his journal. On page 156 of my copy of that book Bayerlein writes "Rommel's tank strength at that time comprised 260 German and 154 Italian tanks. Of the German tanks, 15 were Panzer I, 40 were Panzer II, 150 were Panzer III (50 per cent of which were still equipped with the 37mm gun), and 55 were Panzer IV."

I posted this quote once before because I love the early tanks and thought that his offered a justification for including the 37mm Pz III in a North African campaign… after all Bayerlein was there. My earlier posting was not received well by some TMP members. Whether Bayerlein is correct or not, I still think this statement offers an interesting option for those who like the early Pz III and would like to include them in North Africa.

It's hard to argue with Gen. Bayerlein. Also, I agree that adding PzIIIs with 37mm guns add more interest. As well as adding some PzIs. I know the Afrika Korps had some PzIs at Tobruk.
You're posting is received quite well by this TMPer, Richard. And I thank you for it…
Lot's of food for thought, Whitemanticore…

The Army Group North Pz IIIs that have currently and painted for the desert have the short 37 mm and I too had read that those had been shipped as there had not been time to upgrade. So far most of the scenarios I have run in 28 mm are the early engagements and the first fights around Tobruk. I want to move to middle and later engagements as I have Stuart Honey and M3 Lee for my British forces however I do have a Matilda II and just love the look of that tank. Regardless I need to upgrade my DAK vehicles to reflect these later actions.

Rrobby I have a nice mix of tanks in 15/18 as well. In fact one scenario I run for Fireball Forward is titled St. Joseph's Farm which is the first engagement of American armor forces against German. This has a ton of M3 Stuarts, a few of the early anti-tank M3 Halftracks against a force of German Pz III Gs, Js, and Pz IV F2s. It is always an exciting fight.

My 6mm Afrika Korps units are mostly Panzer III G/Hs

"It's hard to argue with Gen. Bayerlein."

Well it is, particularly given his penchant for simply making things up because he couldn't actually remember, as he admitted after the war. If everything in individual accounts was true then the Germans really did use Tigers at Elsenborn Ridge, 12th SS Panzer Division used Panzer IIIs at Cheux, the allies led the breakout from Valkenswaard with American shermans and the town of Tonbridge Wells really is a channel port (as per the German Seelowe intelligence appreciation….).

But yes, Panzer 1s in the Afrika Korps, no problem.

As Frederick says, the classic DAK tank is the Pz III H/G.

Tunisia is a lot of fun for a really wild mix of equipment, one of my favourite theatres.

"…but what is known, however, is that every PzKpfw III sent to North Africa was retrofitted and armed with the new 50mm KwK L/42…." Rommel's Africa Korps by Pier Paolo Battistelli

I assume that, as this work would be extensive, it would have been done prior to shipping the earlier model PzIIIs to Africa.

@ War in 15mm.
There will still 37mm in service in Russia at the time – I am sure Afrika was no different.

The difference between Russia and North Africa is that most panzer divisions invading Russia were older existing divisions that had been equipped with 37mm armed PzIII before the upgrade and still had them. While the units sent to North Africa were new and got the 50mm armed PzIII then being produced as they were being equipped.

All reliable sources say no 37mm PzIIIs in North Africa.

All reliable sources say no 37mm PzIIIs in North Africa.

Which reliable sources would those be?

All reliable sources say no 37mm PzIIIs in North Africa.
Which reliable sources would those be?

Thomas Jentz in Panzer Truppen for a start who has spent 30+ years trawling through the archives searching out the original Wehrmacht documents.
Panzer regiment 5 took 25 PzI, 45 PzII, 71 PzIII(5cm), 20 PzIV and 7 PzBef.
Panzer regiment 8 took 45 PzII, 71 PzIII(5cm), 20 PzIV and 10 PzBef.
Plus to convince me that 37mm PzIII's went to Africa I'd like to see at least 1 picture of one. Of course the dummy gun on the PzBef looks like the 37mm so you would need a pic that shows the mantlet and the rear deck so you could exclude the frame aerial of the PzBef.

I probably should stay out of this because in writing what I did I certainly was not seeking to start an argument. I have never seen a picture of a tank in North Africa that I am absolutely sure was a Pz III with a 37mm gun. Although on page 67 of West of Alamein by Colonel G.B. Jarrett there is a picture of two knocked out Pz IIIs on what is obviously a North African battlefield. The caption identifies one of the tanks has having the short 50mm gun and the other as having the 37mm gun. Frankly, I rather doubt that they saw much if any service in North Africa. I was simply saying that a German General/Bayerlein who served on Rommel's staff in North Africa and who was approved by Rommel's family as a significant contributor/stand-in for Rommel to a book on Rommel's papers says that Pz IIIs mounting 37mm guns were in use with the Afrikakorps, and consequently, it was my thinking that that might provide an option/open the door enough so that some people who enjoy the earlier German tanks could incorporate them in a North Africa game… just for fun. I am probably putting to much emphasis on fun.

From another perspective, Don Featherstone says that the 'D' variant was used by staff officers for reconnaissance. It was equipped with a 37mm gun as well as an extra MG.

The E-G variants had the 50mm/L42 gun. He also says that Hitler ordered all PZIIIs that were being repaired to be refitted with the 50mm/L60 gun. He goes on to say that had these tanks been used in sufficient numbers they would have been the answer to the M-3 Grant tank.

So with that and withy what others have said, I suspect you would be best off keeping with the 5cm/L42 gun and a few 37mm armed tanks for command/scout and a few 5cm/L60s for the ones that got retrofitted.

If the scouts were mostly using the 37mm Pz3, I'd prefer to model them as such. Might only build one 37mm (or at most a small platoon), and then a greater number of 5cm/L42s.

Since you already have 2 of the 37mm Pz3s, I'd mark one for an HQ unit and one as a scout. Maybe a full platoon of 5 Pz3Js.

One particularly noticeable thing about the desert is how flat it is.
Cover was rare and hence games with tanks and infantry in them are a bit of a problem.
Infantry have no cover unless they're in a trench so they just have to pretty much sit there and watch the tanks do whatever they want.

Different story in Tunisia.