"Can I Get a 411 Overview on SAGA: Crescent & Cross?" Topic

OK, I realize that I'm late to the party on Saga. I just haven't had any interest in the Dark Ages setting. However, I have major interest in The Crescent & Cross, and 2 or 3 large cartons of 54-60mm Crusaders, Spaniards, Moors, Saracens, Military Orders, etc., just begging to be used for something. My original goal was to do WRG 6th Edition armies, so we're talking 300-400 figures or more.

So, that being said, I've read the reviews, and some game reports, and I have a vague idea of how the mechanics work in general. What I'm wondering is what is the average size of a warband? Is there standard basing, and what would it translate to for 54mm? My current options are to stay with WRG (which I like very much!), use a friends Medieval Battles rules (which are relatively quick and fun, but unknown), or try SAGA which would have the advantage of being fairly well-known and apparently fast to play.

If, for instance, a warband were around 50 figures, then I have enough figures to do all 6 new factions. Can other factions from previous books be used with the Crescent & Cross factions? I'm thinking of Byzantines vs Muslims at Manzikert or Italo-Normans in Sicily and the First Crusade. Is it practical to use more than 2 factions for a multi-player game? At least one inquiring mind would like to know these things before plunking down $86 USD plus shipping for 2 sets of dice and one book.

Oh yeah, for a con setting, do I need more than one book? A set of faction dice for each player? How tough is it to make your own dice?

Thanks in advance guys!

Bill
Sir William the Aged

What 54mm figs do you have? I can not give you much in site on the rules, but was thinking of doing this period. Most likely using Perry's, but would be interested in 40 or 54 if there are good sculpts.

Chris

In answer to your questions:
– 40-50 figures is about an average sized warband.
– I don't imagine you'll be coming up against too many other 54mm warbands, so you get to pick the basing you like! The important things are figures are individually based, on a base that's not too large. Most people use circular bases, but I've played against some who use square bases.
– Saga are definitely skirmish rules, unlike WRG.
– From what I understand, all the factions will be able to be used with each other.
– I've played 4-player games where each player has had a separate faction. They were lots of fun.
– One book is fine. All you really need is a QRS for each player. Each player will need their own dice.
– I made my own dice – straightforward but time-consuming. I printed the symbols on stickers and then cut them out and stuck them on the dice.

Hope that's helpful,

Bill the moderately aged.

Saga is a great game, very easy to learn the rules, but you have a lot of strategy with the battle boards. I highly recommend it. For 54mm figures, wow what a spectacle you will have.
Although C&C is a stand alone game it has been play tested so it is compatible with the original Saga factions.
One rule book is sufficient with the player aid sheets downloadable from Studio Tomahawks forum.
I did initially buy the Saga dice, but it got complicated when later factions starting sharing dice with ealier factions. I then bought myself some blank dice and some small coloured stickers; yellow, blue and red. Applied these to the blank dice as per the correct quantity of each colour, yellow being 3 sides, blue 2 sides and red 1 side. I then put the battle boards in a plastic sleeve and placed the relevant coloured stickers on the sleeve to correspond with the dice on the battle board. Cost me next to nothing compared to the Saga dice.
Buy the rule book, I am sure you won't be disappointed. If you are I will buy it from you and give to a friend. That is how confident I am that you will enjoy the game.

Chris (and anyone else interested):

My collection is all plastic, mostly Jecsan and Reamsa (Spanish makers), but also includes Marx, Timpo, Airfix, Italeri (mostly oop sadly) and some other "oddballs" that I found mostly on eBay. Jecsan and Reamsa are closer to 60mm, but mix fairly well with the Italeri and others. Jecsan and Reamsa also do specific sets for Moors, El Cid, Knights of Richard & Arthur, Vikings, Huns/Mongols (which can make fair Turcopoles with a little work), Crusaders. There are several toy soldier dealers that carry them, but for many eBay is your friend.

Jecsan: auction

Reamsa: auction

Italeri had some great mounted sets that can still be found, but usually at a pretty steep "collectors markup". I got lucky and found all of mine still in stock at a couple of distributors and cleaned them out. They do or did Teutonic Knights, Crusading Knights, generic Knights, Saracens, Mamluks, Mongols (make good late askaris with a little work).

There are also metal ranges that aren't too bad cost-wise if you only need some "special" figures. Irregular probably has the widest range at the best price.

The biggest problem with doing 54-60mm is that the majority (if not all) of these were created as "toys" in sets with multiple poses. This can be good and bad. It's good for variety, but it's bad for a gamer who wants balanced forces and all troop types. For instance, the Reamsa Moorish set only includes 2 archers, and you can't buy them separately usually. The Jecsan set has no archers. So, to do my forces, I'm using Viking archers from 3 makers, English Robin Hood type archers from Airfix, Marx and Airfix medieval archers, and Britains generic medieval archers; all with a lot of green stuff!

As to 40mm, I had already amassed much of my collection or I might have gone this route. There is an excellent Crusades range made by First Legion in metal that is constantly expanding. Unfortunately, they just added their first mounted knight set and still don't have any Muslim cavalry. They do have great ranges of foot though and will be adding mounted. For now you can fill in with mounted 42mm from Irregular or with Sash & Saber's Normans turned into Spaniards, Italo-Normans or First Crusaders. This is a scale and period that is just taking off and will only continue to grow.

First Legion: link

Irregular: irregularminiatures.co.uk

Sash & Saber: link

Hope this helps anyone considering the larger scales.

Bill
Sir William the Aged

Quick example of warband size. We played a four cornered game earlier this week, and each of us had 4 point armies.
I had Vikings with a leader, a unit of 4 Berserks, another of four hearthguard (well trained, heavily armored), a unit of 8 average warriors, and a unit of 12 peasant archers, total 29 figures. The Norman warband had a leader, four knights, 8 mounted sergeants, 8 crossbowmen, and 12 peasant archers, total of 33. The Scots had a leader, two cavalry units (elite) each with four figures, a unit of 8 warriors, and a unit of 12 archers, total 29. Finally, we had a Skraeling warband with a leader, three units of 8 warriors, and a unit of 12 archers, for a total of 37. Six point armies are also popular--for my Vikings, I add another unit of 8 warriors and a second unit of four hearthguard. So, for a six point army, I'd have 41 figures.

I've bought a couple sets of the official, expensive Saga dice; I also have several sets of blank dice I've added symbols to. The symbols are available on the SAGA Forum for download and printing. My Vikings have found the home made dice seem to be luckier than the fancy store bought dice!

As for basing, my Vikings are on washers, and have had no trouble fighting with the square Normans, errr, Normans on square bases. WRG 6th uses individual basing I think; I imagine you could use the same basing for SAGA, though you might want to look into putting the archers and other light, skirmish troops on a smaller base and using a sabot when you play WRG.

Grelber

My review of Saga here TMP link has some details about making your own dice.

Here's a thread with pictures of my dice.

link

Warbands are usually 4 or 6 points. For one point you get:

4 hearthguard; or
8 warriors; or
12 levy

One warlord is free. So the minimum size in a 4 point game is 17 figures (if they are all elite hearthguard). The maximum size in a 6 point game is 73 (if you get all levy). A more typical 6 point warband/army might be:

8 hearthgurd
24 warriors
12 levy
1 warlord

Basing is mostly irrelevant as units move and attack individually. 25mm/1" washers are a typical infantry base.

The battleboard can be either be viewed as adding historical flavor or as adding elements of fantasy.

You can use multiple figure bases, just adjust your thinking on what a base represents. So if based for wrg: for eacample, a unit of warriors (LHI) containing 8 bases gets shot and fails to save 1 wound, then you remove a base of three figures rather than a single figure.

54mm means you will provide both sides since not many are playing in that scale. You decide what basing looks best for you. Oh, and get a big table :D

My addition: Saga is very much a flavor game, and WRG a much dryer play. Friends of mine who appeal to "reality" in a large-scale battle do not like Saga. They would prefer WRG. I strongly prefer Saga. Perhaps you can try a game?

As to army size and playing with multiple factions on one side. Once I started creating big multi-player games based on historic battles, Saga hit it's stride as a multi-player game. For example, Hastings had the heroic characters of William, and Harold and his brothers, "heros" defined in the Saga rules. Every player was a named historic character, and the Norman force was an alliance of Breton's and Normans. It looked and played totally different than a WRG or Might of Arms game, but was great fun. And the army size was determined by how many guys were playing, not an arbitrary point value.

I like Saga, and suggest you try it.

Marshal Mark – great work on the dice.

I'm thinking SAGA will be in the shopping cart soon…

Vanguard makes some great 40mm medieval and have crossbows and mail and plate armor figures as well. We have a larger range of feudal cavalry due out soon.

Here is a link to my site where I sell them.

link

link

I play both Saga and Day of Battle in 40mm.

Here is a TMP thread on my 40mm saga game.

TMP link

Chris Parker

"Basing is mostly irrelevant as units move and attack individually. 25mm/1" washers are a typical infantry base."

This is so true, I use 1" round magnetic discs with adhesive back for my 25's and 50's.

Chris

link