"Hanoverian Infantry Question" Topic

Dear All,
I am writing a book on the Hanoverian Army Uniform of the WAS & 7YW.

In 1729, the infantry uniform had white or yellow edging to lapels, cuffs and waistcoats. I have dated illustrations of this to 1748 by Morier. When was the edging removed. I have various sources.
1. During the WAS so by 1748.
2. At the start of the 7YW, c1758. A vague reference made by Ortenberg that is repeated by others.
3. I have no contemporary illustations of the lace edged uniform used during the 7YW.
4. None of Schirmer's illustrations that show the lace edging are dated beyond 1750.

Comments are welcome. Thank you.
Stephen

IIRC according to account books of Morier's patron HRH the Duke of Cumberland, the paintings of the Hanoverians were almost certainly done in the spring/summer of 1748 as the allied army was demobilising. So it's fair to say that the fully laced uniform was worn throughout the WAS.

Not sure exactly when it happened, but I know that I was relieved to find out I could paint my SYW Hanoverians without loads of lacing!

Thank you.

Now do we know when the lace was removed?
1. Was this before the 7YW? and what date.
2. During the 7YW? and what date.

Stephen

Vol II of CCP Lawson's history of the uniforms of the British Army has quite a large chapter on the Hanoverian Army of 1740-63. Lawson had access to a lot of contemp c18th material both through his correspondence with the great German expert Schirmer and access to docs in the British Royal collection.

Illustration 184 shows the Hanoverian infantry coat styles of 1729 and '1750-53', and is taken from a book in the Windsor Castle library- although the text does not give a title for the work. The 1750-53 coats shown have no lace on the cuffs or lapel edges, although the buttonholes themselves are laced. So if this source is accurate, it looks like the lace was removed sometime between 1748 and 1750-53.

Thank you. That was my assumption but this differs to that of Ortenburg and has been often repeated. This is supported by the work of Schirmer looking at his illustrations.
Stephen

However, in the text [Lawson II: 230] below Figure 184, it says "All the line regiments were dressed in red coats with half lapels, round cuffs and skirt turnbacks of the facing colour, with waistcoats to match. Both these garments were laced on the edges and buttonholes with a plain yellow or white worsted without any pattern or design. The Morier paintings and the British Museum 1750 MS agree in these details……"

The dating on Figurr 184B of 1750-53 could be a typo and it is 1760-63.

So I am still unclear.
Stephen

Stefan Schultz and I went through all this when we were doing the research for the Hanoverian figure range now sold by Siege Works Studios. We concluded that the lacing had gone by the SYW, hence these figures (unlike Mindens)do not carry the lacing.

I don't see a conflict between the caption to Lawson fig 184 and the following text and hence the need to posit a typo (in an age when editing manuscripts was far more rigorous than today by all accounts). The BM manuscripts could be from 1750 but reflect details a year or two earlier, whilst the '1750-53' is loose enough to allow a couple of years between the two sources, and hence the difference. As Lawson does not give a source for the figure 184B, I agree it is unclear but I think the inference can be safely drawn, as we seem to have all done so far.

Dear John
So the no lace hypothesis goes against Ortenburg p16 that states "At the beginning of the war, lapel and cuffs were bound with white or yellow tape."

This strangely vague statement has been repeated by Reid (Osprey) and Mollo.

There are numerous typos in Lawson especially in this section.

What German sources did you look at?

If you look at Detail (1758) which is a French chart of the Hanoverian Army this seems to show lace on the Waistcoats. Alas resolution is very poor and I have not been able to understand how to obtain a high resolution copy. The forms are in French.
link

The more I look at this the more it seems reasonable that the change occurred in 1758-59 period. The answer is that I do not know and would like to resolve this for the sake of the book.
Stephen

Dear Stephen,

Once more, You seem to point your finger on another of those weak spots.
I always thought 1758 was the year, the lace around the cuffs, lapels, etc. disapperared. But from your above details, I'm not so sure anymore.

Have you contacted Kronoskaf yet. I know one of our contributers, Michael Jahn, has done some in depth research. He might know in somewhat more detail. From what I can see from the bulk of images he has gathered, it should be 1758-1759.

I have checked L. von Sichart, "Geschichte der königlish-Hannoverschen Armee". Oddly enough, he covers the period of the early 18th C in detail in vol 2, but continues only with the post 7YW changes in vol 3, part 1. P. 179 provides the fragment saying that there was an order dating from 1758, which layed out that the officers were to dress in simple uniforms without any lace, just the buttons were maintained, of course.

Changes may be found elsewhere in the books, possibly the individual preperations to each campaign. I will have a closer look within the next days. Tonight is football, sorry

Cheers,
Christian

Dear Christian
Thank you as ever for your comments and details. No I have not contacted Kronostaf directly. Certainly it would be interesting to atlk to Michael Jahn.

Thank you for the Sichart comment that I have seen quoted elsewhere but was unsure where this came from.

I am thinking that 1758 seems to be the most logical year for the change.

Enjoy the Football and I hope Germany win.
Stephen

In Manley's 'Uniforms of the Danish and German States armies 1739-1748' he says the Hanoverians started the WAS in the 1729 pattern coat. He says they began to change to the new, less lace, style in 1743 "but this clothing issue had not reached all troops in the field by 1748".

Unfortunately he doesn't reference individual references, he just has a 'Select Bibliography' at the end of the work. This does not look, to someone with a good background to this period but who is no expert, to be a very useful selection to check up where he got this.

It has a number of titles dealing with various other armies and some general/generally available works – Funken, Knotel and similar. None of these look likely sources for this idea to me. He also mentions using the Austrian General Staff History of 1895-1914 and various periodicals (mainly gamers material or similar).

So I am a bit dubious about the authenticity of the idea of a change from 1743 but done slowly. I thought I would mention it as another possible lead.

Thanks, Stephen. I can't answer your question on German sources, as that was Stefan's area for obvious reasons. Trying to remember exactly how we came to our conclusion, I can recall that we wanted the figures to represent the army at Minden, so we probably didn't pursue the exact date too closely (unfortunately I haven't kept all the correspondence) but were happy that it was before 1759.
There certainly does seem to be some confusion around this question if one seeks precision. My own feeling remains that a date on a picture does not necessarily reflect the date of the uniform, unless like Morier it is authenticated.

Dear John
We have uniform changes in 1729, 1742, 1748, 1758, 1761 and 1766 so far from my collation of the illustrations and dating.

I am coming to the conclusion that the date was 1758 for the removal of the lace edging to cuffs and lapels. I have just bought a copy of Schirmer (1929) Nec Apsera Terrent and this has a number of useful tables that I need to go through.

So yes I think you were correct for 1759 that it did not have the lace edging. The dating of Morier and documents in the Royal Collection for 1750-53 have been confirmed. The Detail (1758) from the French Gallia collection shows lace edging.

Gmunder is wrongly dated by Ortenberg to 1761 and is about 1759-60 showing a transitional uniform to that of 1761. The year 1761 is important as George III came to the throne and he instigated many changes. Waistcoats no longer in facing colours and white breeches, some exceptions. Also the crossbelt changed from Natural leather with large buckle to white. Very similar to the British Infantry uniform.

That is where my thoughts are at present. Comments and corrections are welcome.
Stephen

I've also heard about the false dating of the "Gmunder" book.
Do you read from the original German edition, or do you have the English one?
The English edition has some errors. I noted the grenadier organisation is poorly translated. I think Nigel Billingtons newly printed edition has got it right now.

Well, we don't know when this new regulation was put into effect. Most obviously with the issue of the new uniforms (every two years, I believe).
1758 makes sense as during that year the Hannover treasure collapsed and the British took over. I believe the entire financing system was set on a new footing that year. The new regulations should be dated to sometime after these changes.
I recall in the journal of the Hannoverian general-adjutant von Rheden, he mentions the contrast of the looks of the German troops to the fine dressed British during August. With the Germans, he notes, nothing was clean and shiny, except for their weapons.

Christian
Have you been to the archives? The military material was very damaged by water. I have an unpublished history of the Hanoverian troops that I have been fiddling with for 25 years.
Ken

No, haven't been to the archives.

@ Stephen – So sorry, The British Treasure took over only in March 1759.
My earlier idea to link the regulation with the changes of finance, thus, is altogether wrong.

Cheers,
Christian

Certainly it is in the 1758-59 region that the change of the removal of the lace edging. When I have done some more work, I am willing to send at least part of my manuscript out for comment. This is important to attempt to get it as correct as possible. I am currently compiling the facings information from 1729-1766.
Stephen

Tricorne, stop fiddling and get it out there. (please)

Stephen, if you want me to have a look, do you have Tessin? I can't offer much for uniform data but can give you general comments/proofing (no charge)

Dear Mark
Thank you for your offer. It is in the fact checking stage at present. Trying to pull together the picture. No I do not have Tessin.
Stephen

Tessin is actually copyright protected. The basic source for following regimental changes throughout our period. Berlinner Zinnfiguren could help find a copy.

Tessin would only give lists of Inhaber and I have those from various sources. Thank you for making me aware that it is available again. Now in electronic form.
Stephen

Did I miss some posts?? obviously Tessin is in copyright, did someone suggest otherwise? and available electronically??

I mentioned Tessin because it was useful in sorting out the personalities (too many common family names)and Christian names.
they are not cheap but still around, although I could only get volume 2 in microfiche and full of corrections.

Georg Tessin, Die Regimenter der europäischen Staaten im „Ancien Regime" des XVI bis XVIII. Jahrhunderts.
is in three volumes. Teil 1 Die Stammlisten (Osnabruck 1986) is the best with 744 pages listing every European regiment of the "Ancien Regime" following its name changes from its origination through about 1806. Teil 3 Namensregister der deutschen Regimentsinhaber und Kommandeure u. der regimenter mit Orts- und Ländernamen aus ganz Europa (Osnabruck 1995)is 439 list of owner/commander names and their units. I have Teil 1 and 3. They are available in some university libraries and are extremely useful. Teil 2 is available in microfiche with handwritten notes – an alphabetic listing of Names and Units.

Lets not mess with the sources. Tessin is just silly gossip Yellow Press who-is-who stuff. Stephen asks for glossy print Men's Harper's Bazar. We talk men's fashion, not who who family relations. Has this forum become a girls hangout recently?
(meant to be ironical – in case my Sauerkraut-English does not serve to pass the message)