"longbowmen HYW vs. WoTR" Topic

I hesitate to ask, but can HYW English longbowmen be used for War of the Roses English longbowmen?

I know that I can use whatever I want, I also imagine there are subtle differences, but would they be glaring to a moderately well-informed anglophile?

I hesitate to ask, but can HYW English longbowmen be used for War of the Roses English longbowmen?

It is not recommended. They are quite different in appearance.

Of course it depends a bit on what part of HYW you are talking about, eg. Crecy, Agincourt or Castillon.

You could probably get away with late HYW longbowmen as early WOTR guys wearing out of date fashions. However, the late medieval period was one one quite pronounced changes of dress.

Is it not going to depend upon which part of the HYW your archers are from?

The HYW ended in 1453 and the Wars of the Roses started in 1455, so mid-fifteenth century archers should be good for the back end of one and the start of the other. On the other hand, if your HYW archers are Crecy-era or Agincourt-era then there will be differences that might not be acceptable, depending upon how much of a stickler for period costume you are.

What are the differences between an Agincourt era bowman and a late WoTR bowman?

You could just do a Google image search. Or look at the perry website and compare the existing wotr plastic bowmen with their upcoming 100yw bowmen.

I personally use my extensive Agincourt era HYW collection to fill out my small WOTR collection without any fear or worry.

that being said, I do aim to pick up some more WOTR figs. Partly to lessen this horrible anachronism, but mostly because I love Perry miniatures and want more of them.

As long as consenting adults do it in the privacy of their own homes, I have no problem with it.
Just don't do it in public where it may scare the children and frighten the horses.

It also matters if 28mm versus smaller scales.

Really, an early longbowman looks exactly the same on the table, it's only when you pick him up and do a side by side comparison to a 1485 archer that you can even see differences. Many longbowmen used kit they had bequeathed to them, i.e. older styles. A padded jack is almost identical no matter what the period. A tunic is a tunic, ditto chausses or leggings. Many archers did not even have helmets but wore caps which do not look different enough over centuries to quibble about, etc….

Really, an early longbowman looks exactly the same on the table, …

True, but the most noticeable difference is in the livery. In the WOTR, archers would usually wear the livery of the retinue to which they belonged whereas in the HYW they are more likely to have worn the cross of St George.

There are significant differences in many factors between say 1415 and 1453, let alone 1460s or 1470s. But its your table so put on it what you want…..

The HYW ended in 1453 and the Wars of the Roses started in 1455

Says it all really!

Yes but you won't catch me in any outdated 2012 fashions!

No I don't even notice anyone walking around in 1940s cloths any more…

The HYW ended in 1453 and the Wars of the Roses started in 1455

Says it all really!

Yes, you are absolutely right, and late HYW figures would be OK for WOTR. But don't forget that the HYW started in 1337!!

"1940's clothing": on a miniature there would be no perceivable difference. Hats had largely gone out of style by the 40s. Double-breasted suits, wide lapels, jeans, button-up shirts, it's the patterns and colors that change mostly. But on a 28mm figure how do you model that? Mostly you don't bother. So yes, a 40s and early 21st century male in formal wear would interchange, and casual wear would be even less of a difference, especially now with everything in style, you get to pick. People almost wear costumes instead of clothing these days. Whose to say that the 15th century was that different?…

A tunic is a tunic

Actually, there would be one clearly noticeable differences – tunics became significantly shorter in the period between 1350 and 1450.

To show off more leg in tight hosen, I know. But I don't think that yeomen were into fashion that way as a rule….

Guess we have been watching different films from the 40's and any imagery, hats were far from out of style and lots of other differences .Anyways Guess we'll have to disagree on this, plus we aren't talking about formal wear in the figures, but day to day wear, which a re quite differen now than they were then. As well I have seen marked different styles in making figures look "different" in 28mm. Like I said put whatever figures on the table one wants. but don't tell me there is no real difference between say Agincourt and and Tewksbury

""1940's clothing": on a miniature there would be no perceivable difference. Hats had largely gone out of style by the 40s. Double-breasted suits, wide lapels, jeans, button-up shirts, it's the patterns and colors that change mostly. But on a 28mm figure how do you model that? Mostly you don't bother. So yes, a 40s and early 21st century male in formal wear would interchange, and casual wear would be even less of a difference, especially now with everything in style, you get to pick. People almost wear costumes instead of clothing these days. Whose to say that the 15th century was that different?…"

Yeah, in theory, troops from the last few years of the HYW would wear similar clothing and equipment to those of the WOTR (leaving aside the very noticeable issue of liver, but if you are just asking which figures you can buy, that is not a problem).

But the problem is, if you want to use the HYW figures in any of the HYW battles people like to play, you need the earlier style figures. And if you get the earlier style figures, they are inaccurate for WOTR. Even if you are just doing generic campaigns or tournaments, when people who know anything about the period see the figs, it will look wrong. The polite folks will not say anything, but don't get mad if someone points out that you are using the wrong figures.

And I'm guessing what you are really asking is, "There are some HYW figs that I like/already have/can get cheap, can I use them for WOTR?" If the figures in question are designed and marketed as HYW, I can almost guarantee they will be too early for WOTR, because the figure companies design HYW figures aimed for Crecy or Poitier, and Agincourt at a stretch, not for the skirmishes that occurred at the tail end of the war.

Certainly the case that tunics and padded jackets became shorter, though maybe we should expect that that was a variable matter for the seriously fashion-conscious…hemlines going up for a season or two and then down again. Equally, there 's not an infinite range of medieval figures and we' re looking at a lion period. You can get almost anything you want for the ACW and from a huge range of manufacturers so the ranks of your units can be nicely varied, but that does n't apply for the medieval war gamer, so if you want plenty of variety among your figures (and you should) you either have to be prepared to do a lot of conversion work or accept a lot of uniformity or accept having figures that are not quite as 'date-specific' as you would like them to be. Some campaigns/sub-periods and some troop-types are better catered-for than others. You can, for example, get a pretty wide range of archers suitable for 1300-1350(ish)but not a great variety of spearmen and there is a dearth of dismounted men-at-arms for the same period with long spears or open hands.

Ugly's attitude is practical. E.g. I mix my "Normans" and later medievals in large battles, and I use them as "Crusaders", etc. I've used my "Burgundians" for WotR troops and vice versa. When playing the larger HYW battles I've been compelled to use (gasp!) shortbow archers that I have to fill in the ranks of my longbow. And so it goes….

But the problem is, if you want to use the HYW figures in any of the HYW battles people like to play, you need the earlier style figures.

Actually, I find the 1450-1453 campaigns quite interesting, though not necessarily very balanced. And the bigger battles themselves still featured several thousand men per side, rather than being mere skirmishes.

For your average Anglophonic Francophobe it might of course be difficult to admit that those campaigns actually ever happened…

Griefbringer,

I stand corrected. And I applaud you for gaming that period, when the French finally drove the invaders out. But I respectfully submit you are among the rare exception in focusing on later engagements, as there is indeed a heavy anglophone bias regarding the HYW.

Formigny is a very fun battle to play and quite big enough to be a real battle and not just a skirmish….

Well, I haven't done any actual gaming for these battles (or even painted figures). I just happened to buy the pretty recent Osprey campaign book on the topic, and got interested.

Formigny certainly looks like an interesting engagement, with both sides engaged in some movement and manoeuvre.

Castillon is a bigger battle, though with the French sitting behind the field fortifications and English throwing forces into assault piecemeal it might require a bit of tinkering to build an interesting scenario for both sides.

That said, we are getting a bit beyond the original topic…

As mentioned. if you want variety I think you have to be a bit liberal about figure-choices. We're going to have quite a lot of Claymore's 'Otterburn' range for our Bannockburn game. In an ideal world we'd have lots of guys with slightly longer padded jackets, but there's not that may to choose from, lots of what there is just are n't very nice and a fair proportion of what is available would need to have their spears replaced…and of course the Claymore figures are very sweet.

For the latter stages of the HYW for sure. Suffolks abortive attempt to hang on to Maine, Richard, duke of York's campaigns (good commander), Castillon etc etc.

Darrell.

Just Add Water II Blog (Painting etc):
link
La Journee Blog (Hundred Years War):
link
Gewalthaufen Blog (Late 15th Cebtury Blog):
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

Hugh Talbot's The English Achillies, is good inspiration for post Agincourt until the closing years HYW, dealing with, unsurprisingly, John Talbots carreer.
Best

I can see us getting into later HYW as an alternative role for my wife's early WotR…don't know why it has n't occurred to us before really.
A good arena fro early HYW figures is the 2nd Scottish Wars of Independence from 1332 onwards..mostly small actions between parties of men-at-arms, very colourful and chivalric!

Also for the middle HYW, one has Free Companies, John of Gaunt in SPain, mentioned and Free Companies in Italy

"Just don't do it in public where it may scare the children and frighten the horses."

+1. Which type of horse? HYW?

… bear in mind that destriers were n't all that big, so might be easily frightened by children; I know I am.