"Russian Flags - Selected Units and Periods" Topic

I'm still looking for resolution/confirmation of Model type on a number of units from both the 1805-07 period, and the 1812-14 period. Especially in the case of infantry regiments, these are primarily units for which I see no 1803 or 1806 flag issues in Viskovatov. I expect that most were carrying 1797 issue flags, but some might have 1800 issue:

1805 – 1807 PERIOD
Moscow Dragoons – Green flag?
Azov Musketeers – 1797 flags?
Little Russia Cuirassiers – White flag?
Chevalier Guards – White flag?

1812 – 1814 PERIOD
Guard Cossacks
Kexholm IR
Polotsk IR
Yeletsk IR
Ekaterinburg IR
Rylsk IR
Emperor Cuirassiers
Empress Cuirassiers

Thanks for the help.

All your Infantry Regt's go with 1797 pattern until Kexholm joined the Guard Divisions.
this could help
link

These web sites CAN be very helpful. But they are not completely reliable. For example, the following link purposes to be the source for the Model 1800 Flags:
link

However, we know that very few Model 100 flags were actually issued. The list of those regiments is not included on the page. So, as a result, the site tells us NOTHING about which regiments were actually ISSUED the Model 1800 flags. See what I mean?

Have you not discovered that Viskovatov describes the 1797 issues in an earlier volume?

For the cavalry units listed ….

These seem pretty striaght forward. What makes you think that there are "issues" for the flags of these units? Am I missing something?

Moscow Dragoons – (3 May 1798) 5 standards: one with a white cross and corners half orange and half blue; the rest with an orange cross and blue corners; silver fringe. The blue is голубой цвет – like azure, a bright medium blue

Malorossiyskiy Cuirassiers – (11 February 1798) 5 standards: one with a white field and violet corners; the rest with a violet field and light-green corners; gold embroidery and fringe.

His Majesty's Life-Cuirassiers – (25 June 1798) 5 standards: one with a white field and blue corners; the rest with a blue field and white corners; silver embroidery and fringe. The blue is голубой цвет – like azure, a bright medium blue.

Her Majesty's Life-Cuirassiers – (25 June 1798) 5 standards: one with a white field and raspberry corners; the rest with a raspberry field and blue corners; silver embroidery and fringe The blue is голубой цвет – like azure, a bright medium blue.

Life Cossack Regment – (1799 January 6) granted two flags of an antiquated banner style [measuring: along the pole 17.5 inches, length 54 1/4 inches. One of these flags, in the first squadron, was white with a gold fringe and a raspberry cross emitting gold rays. The other was raspberry with a silver fringe, white cross, and silver rays. (1799 June 6) – The regiment was granted a third standard similar to the second.

A Black Sea Cossack Hundred was added in 1811 (from Kuban Cossack people in the region of modern Krasnodar), and expanded to form the 4th squadron in 1815. I have no knowledge of an award of a standrd for the original hundred, and this would not be likely as they were not even a "squadron". Regimental standards have been awarded to the Kuban Host (14 in Pavel's reign and 6 more in Aleksandr's). But they were immediately stored and never actually used! The colors were yellow+white with a red cross for the 14 (and for the overall Host standard) and yellow+green with a red cross for the 6,
link
If you must have soemthing flying for the Black Sea Hundred, maybe something like an over-sized lance pennant halved yellow and white with a red cross?

There was a broad re-issue of honorific standards to the guard cavalry 1814-1817, after the peace.

- Sasha

For the infantry ….

Azov Musketeers
Received obr. 1797 on 15.xi.1798, one with a white cross and corners half rose and half puce; for the others a rose cross and puce corners.
Replaced with obr. 1803 in 1809, these were not replaced until the general reorganization of the infantry in 1833
A rather detailed article by Adolenko ….
link
The Azovskiy were supposed to awarded Saint George banners per an order of late 1805. Then it became understood that they had lost 4 colored obr. 1798 at Austerlitz and so the award of Saint George banners was cancelled. Actually, one of these was saved and hidden by prisoners, so the French only thought they had caputred 3. In any case, for excellence in the Swedish war, they were granted 4 replacements obr. 1803 in late 1809.
So, for 1805-1807 after Austerlitz : 1 "white" and 1 "colored" were left uncaptured. To given the last battalion something, they would have used a "plain flag" (not specified in detail in the regulations).

Keksgol'm Infantry/Grenadiers
Had obr 1797 (1x white cross with rose corners, 5x rose cross with white corners). in April 1813, with promotion to Grenadiers, issued 3 Saint George obr. flags, one per battalion, with the inscription ""За отличие при поражении / и изгнании неприятеля / из пределов / России 1812 года". These had green crosses with white corners.

Polotsk Infantry
Had obr 1797 (1x white cross with rose+brown corners, 5x brown cross with rose corners).

Yeletsk Infantry
Had obr 1797

Yekaterinburg Infantry
Had obr 1797 (1x white cross with red+blue corners, 5x blue cross with red corners).

Rylsk Infantry
Had obr. 1797

- Sasha

Sash,

Many thanks, as always. I don't know what I would do without you. Guess, I suppose.

Hew Johns,

I did not know that Viskovatov describes the 1797 issue. Do you have a link for that?

However, the real trick is the lack of info on the 1800 issue. If I can't find a reference to a regiment being issued an 1803 or 1806 Model flag, I would normally assume the regiment carried the Model 1797, UNLESS they were issued a Model 1800. I have never seen a definitive source in English that describes all the regiments who were so issued.

Oh, and Sasha,

I don't have any particular reason for thinking there are "issues" with the cavalry flags. I'm just suspicious is all. Those pesky Russians are forever tricking me, and there is so much that I do NOT know. It's always good to get confirmation from someone who obviously knows MORE. Thanks for that.

1797 flags from Visokovatov – Mr. Conrad's translation :
link
(scroll down)

The original (with links to plates) :
listat.ru/T09/T09_sod.htm
Pick the arm of service from the list starting below "Знамена и штандарты":
I. Въ Гренадерскихъ, Мушкетерскихъ и Гарнизонныхъ полкахъ " (рис. 1224 – 1248) – grenadiers. musketeers and garrisons
II. Въ Кирасирскихъ полкахъ" (рис. 1249 – 1252) – cuirassiers
III. Въ Драгунскихъ полкахъ" (рис. 1253 – 1257) – dragoons
IV. Въ Гвардiи" (рис. 1258 – 1265) – guards
V. Въ Военно-учебныхъ заведенiяхъ" (рис. 1266) – military education institutions
VI. Въ Казачьихъ войскахъ" (рис. 1267 – 1269) – Cossacks
VII. Въ Нацiональныхъ войскахъ" (рис. 1270 – 1271) – Other "national" forces
VIII. Въ Сенатскомъ баталiоне" (рис. 1272) – Senate battalion
Знаки отличiй" (рис. 1273) – awards for disctinction

- Sasha

Sasha,

I can't thank you enough for that Conrad link. Somehow I had never seen it before. Most importantly, it lists the infantry regiments which were actually issued Model 1800 flags. That was the missing piece which has eluded me all this time.

So my take on Russian infantry flags seems complete. All regiments were issued Model 1797 flags. SOME regiments, as listed in your link, above, were issued Model 1800, and SOME regiments were issued Model 1803/06 (different volume of Viskovatov).

My suspicions re cavalry flags are still there, but I assume all cavalry regiments were issued Model 1797, NONE were issued flags of an 1800 model, and then ALL 1797 flags were replaced by Model 1803. Does that sound right?

Again, Many thanks.

Bill

I'm just now reviewing the flag info on cavalry regiments, who are listed by flag issue as are the infantry regiments. Perhaps there are complications, and my above simplification is not warranted. It does look like there was no 1800 issue for any cavalry regiment, but I still don't know if ALL the 1797 flags were replaced by Model 1803/06. It bears a close examination.

While reading all that Viskovatov, I tumbled into a description of Guard Infantry miters. There seems to have been two issues of miter. I assume they were ordered into shakos when the regular infantry got them. IIRC, it was an 1805 order, but implementation was sketchy. I also seem to recall that at least one regiment of Guard Infantry was still wearing miters at Austerlitz. Can anyone confirm that? Which regiment?

So far it looks like not all cavalry received the Model 1803 flags. So some retained the Model 1797 version. At least this seems to be the case for the Dragoons.

I was wrong about the cavalry flags. It appears that three dragoon regiments DID receive Model 1800 flags. Yeesh. The fun never stops!

But wait, the flags were issued in 1800 to regiments formed from combined dragoon regiments. I can't tell if these are Model 1800 flags, or just new 1797 flags issued to new regiments. Since the text refers to the Cuirassier pattern, I'm thinking they are the Model 1797:

"In 1800 the ten-squadron Dragoon regiments of Skalon, Pushkin, and Obrezkov, formed from the Irkutsk, Siberia, Narva, Nizhnii-Novgorod, Vladimir, and Taganrog Dragoons Regiments, were each granted ten new standards: in the first squadrons—white with green corners, and in the other squadrons—green with white corners. In appearance and dimensions they were like cuirassier standards except with the inscriptions "S nami Bog" and "Blagodat'" in place of embroidery, and on the corners of the field as well as on the pole's spearhead—a double monogram, i.e. with two Cyrillic P's laid crosswise over each other. These monograms, and all embroidery and fringe in general, were gold (Illust. 1257) (363). Skalon's regiment (from the Irkutsk and Siberia) received such standards on 26 May (364); Pushkin's regiment (from the Narva and Nizhnii-Novgorod)—on 16 June (365); and Obrezkov's (from the Vladimir and Taganrog)—on 22 June (366)."

Bill,

I have never studied the question of Russian flag issuance overall or comprehensively, so I cannot comment on any generalizations. I can, on the other hand, check specific regiments to a "first look" at the vexillographia.ru website. They have collected information from Viskovatov and other sources. Viskovatov is *not* always right, only usually.

A deeper look I cannot reasonably do for too many regiments. A deeper look would require checking regimental histories, Andolenko, the collected "laws" or decrees of the Russian Empire (PSZRI) and other secondary sources to confirm the issuance of flags and to track losses in combat. A really deep look would require recourse to archival sources, such as regimental correspondence, inspection reports, arsenal inventories, etc.

There is likely a book that should/could be written on this topic, especially in English.

The flags for the three 10-squadron dragoon regiments are not exactly of the obr. 1797 pattern for cuirassiers. They are slightly different, as described and as illustrated (that's why I gave the Russian version as well as Mr. Conrad's translation of Viskovatov – so you can check the illustrations).

These three special issues to the doubled dragoon regiments are sourced by Viskovatov as "HIGHEST Grant of 26 May 1800, No 350 – HIGHEST Grant of 16 June 1800, No 356 – HIGHEST Grant of 22 June 1800, No 367". However, these grants was *not* mentioned in the Chronicle of the Russian Imperial Army, compiled by Prince Dolgorukov nor did Viskovatov find the flags (physically) preserved in an arsenal in the mid-1800's. This makes one wonder if they were ever actually issued. Less than 1 year later, the 10-squadron dragoon regiments were split back into 2x "normal" dragoon regiments each. Also, they had previously been issued obr. 1797 dragoon flags. These were also the dragoons serving in Siberia and the Caucasus … where the delay from ordering a flag issue to it actually being presented (there was a quasi-religious ceremony for delivering regalia) would be the longest.

So, to determine if these were ever issued …. next step would be to figure out which were the successor regiments to these dragoon regiments through the late 1800's and check the 6 (or more) relevant regimental histories. One might also try to find some secondary sources about the organizational histories of the Caucasus and Siberia commands during the reign of Pavel. There might some discussion about this idea of double-sized dragoon regiments. And so on. See? It is a real research project to track these flags carefully.

For the use of mitres, Mr. Gingerich knows as much as I do.
link
I have no reason to think that any guard inantry had mitres at Austerlitz. What makes you think that this happened?

- Sasha

Sasha,

I didn't mean to put you to a lot of trouble. At this point I don't even want to know about those doubled dragoon regiments – waaay too much trouble.

As for guard miters at Austerlitz, I don't remember where I heard or read that. No matter. Shakos it is.

If I ever have more money than I know what to do with, I'll commission some English works on the Napoleonic Russians.
You are quite correct – something in English would be very helpful.

You make reference to regimental histories. Are these available on line, or do we need to visit a library in Russia? I assume it's all in Russian.

Bill,

First, I forgot a good secondary source on Russian flags and regalia, Gabayev:
Габаев, Георгий Соломонович (1877-1956).
Документ о русских знаменах и прочих войсковых регалиях начала XIX века. (1803-1815 гг.)
dlib.rsl.ru/01003777466

Many of the regimental histories can be found at the Russian State Library website : rsl.ru

And there are other websites where you can either get them for free or from someone selling scans (be VERY careful on the Russian internet, especially is buying anything). And finally there are rare book dealers, some online.

Here is a pretty good, though not complete list :
chigirin.narod.ru/ppolkov.html

There are also a few recent "reconstructed" unit histories taken from regimental correspondence as found in the national archives. These can appear as articles (usually in conference proceedings) if only the era 1800-1815 is covered, or as whole books if an entire unit history is written.

All in Russian language. And, except for the modern works, in the pre-revolution old alphabet and spelling (also archaic vocabulary to some extent). This cannot be machine translated "as is". Mr. Gingerich wrote a Python script to modernize Russian spelling :
link

(It might be easier to just learn the language)

- Sasha

Sasha,

On your cavalry flag illustrations, above, I'm not sure I understand the "cross and corners" format. Are the "corners" just those areas inside the wreaths with the cyphers?

Sasha, you wrote
"Moscow Dragoons – (3 May 1798) 5 standards: one with a white cross and corners half orange and half blue; the rest with an orange cross and blue corners; silver fringe. The blue is голубой цвет – like azure, a bright medium blue"

The illustrated flags do not have corners in the infantry sense. Are these "corners" just the area inside the wreaths in the corners of the flag, or was there an infantry style flag that is not here illustrated?

Yes, dragoon standards were similar to infantry flags.
Moscow dragoons are (a) and (b):

- Sasha