"Betsy Ross Flag" Topic

See John is right!

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Interestingly, the homeowner in the story is correct – no previous version of the "stars and stripes" has been repealed, so every incarnation is STILL legal.

He needs to stage a revolution against the tyrannical homeowners' association.

Here! Here!

Homeowner's associations end up being run by people with nothing better to do. Thus when there is nothing for them to do they find something to do. Anyone else would be too busy to waste everyone's time. It's startling.

What we need are a few lawsuits where HOAs have to pay some settlements. If the homeowner's new that having busybodies on their board was going to cost them money they might put some people with better judgement on the board.

I gotta get me one of them circle star flags…

Interesting.

I'm going to get a 'Don't Tread on Me' flag- I've loved those since I first saw them as a kid.

My town has a flag enthusiast that will confront anyone that has a flag with even a slight amount of fraying on the edges.

I have the same disdain for HOAs that you guys do, but I also believe that if you buy in that neighborhood and sign the agreement to abide by their rules then I think it's idiotic to do these sort of nose-tweaking stunts. Reading the article it's obvious he has an agenda, is a repeat rules breaker and hence deserves every fine he gets and then some.

It got him coverage on the news so I suppose he's getting his allotted 15 minutes…

What nazrat said. The guy is being a willful jerk.

I have the same disdain for HOAs that you guys do, but I also believe that if you buy in that neighborhood and sign the agreement to abide by their rules then I think it's idiotic to do these sort of nose-tweaking stunts. Reading the article it's obvious he has an agenda, is a repeat rules breaker and hence deserves every fine he gets and then some.

So, then I guess the people of Boston should have just abided by British law in 1775. No sense rocking the boat.

Stupid and unjust rules and laws need to be challanged at every point.

+1 @nazrat

@nevinsrip: You are comparing apples and oranges. When you are part of an HOA, you are signing a binding contract that should not contain any surprises; you cannot ignore provisions in the agreement because it pleases you to do so. In addition, the rules can be changed if the home owners want to change them. The redress is simple and American; if you don't like the rules of the HOA, you are free to live anywhere else that you want to.

Exactly!

Wrong. The redress is to go to court and have the agreement challenged. It happens all the time. I recall a time when certain HOA's excluded people of different colors or religions.

How did that work out?

HOA's still must abide by Federal, State and Local laws. So if the
flag law, as stated, is a federal law, then the HOA rule will be struck down, as it should be.

HOA rules are agreements and agreements are modified or corrected all the time. Too many times HOA's are run by petty people with nothing better to do than to make someone's elses life difficult
or miserable, just because they can.

And no, I have never lived in a home with an HOA agreement. I would not want to live where someone else can tell me what flag I can fly. I'll make up my own mind, thank you.

Gotta go with Nazrat on this one. The guy knew the HOA rules going in to the deal.

Yes, this rule seems asinine. Yes, it probably is not in compliance with federal law. Yes, there are better ways for both sides to handle things.

Boston in 1775 is not the same situation. The residents then had changes imposed on them from England without any representation. An HOA is a representative body which residents agree to be governed by.

I thought he was flying a Betsey Johnson flag.

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. I'm sure this guy is planning to sue and we shall see what happens. I know of numerous cases where HOA rules were overturned and this will be one of them.

Federal law trumps all.

Is this version permitted? If not, it's time to move

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So far the courts seemed to have upheld the HOA's point-of-view in this case.

Flying the Flag

In Richmond, Va., Richard Oulton, a Vietnam veteran, is fighting his homeowners association for the right to fly an American flag on a 25-foot pole. The association ordered him to take the flagpole down, calling it a "visual nuisance."

Oulton, who has been raising the flag ever since he was a medic in Vietnam and flew the Stars and Stripes over his bunker, has refused. "To take it down now would be a total dishonor and an insult to everyone that has ever stood for the flag," he says.

Oulton says he checked the association's rules before he moved in, specifically to see whether there were any restrictions on flying the flag. He found no reference to flags or flagpoles, so he put up a large flagpole next to the huge home he built on three lots.

He says his neighbors didn't object, and three neighbors 20/20 talked to agreed. One of them, Frank Taylor, called Oulton's flag "an asset to the community."

But the homeowner's association board said the flagpole was too big. "We had no idea someone would erect a flagpole that large when the guidelines were written," says board member Birdie Nichols. Since their guidelines did not mention flagpoles, the board instead relied on a rule that says "no structure shall be erected? without approval."

The board later adopted rules allowing flagpoles — but restricting them to 6 feet in length and requiring that they be mounted on the house, not standing in the yard.

"All we are asking Mr. Oulton to do is to show his patriotism within the guidelines that everyone else in the community is willing to live by," says Nichols.

Oulton admits he could easily hang his flag from a pole mounted on his house, but says, "It wouldn't be the right thing to do."

Oulton says the board is trampling on his basic freedoms. "I don't understand what the problem is. It's a property right that I have to fly this flag. It's a free speech right that I have to fly this flag."

But people living in planned communities may have fewer rights than they think, says McKenzie. "A homeowners association is essentially a private government. … They don't have to respect your civil liberties the same way a real local government has to. They don't have to worry about the Constitution or the Bill of Rights."

So far the courts have ruled that Oulton's flagpole does violate association rules. But he vows to appeal, to the U.S. Supreme Court if necessary.

@Massachusetts Continental

One Please!

But people living in planned communities may have fewer rights than they think, says McKenzie. "A homeowners association is essentially a private government. … They don't have to respect your civil liberties the same way a real local government has to. They don't have to worry about the Constitution or the Bill of Rights."

Cyrus, I have no idea who McKenzie is, but he could not be more wrong. If HOA's didn't have to worry about civil rights then they would be allowed to exclude members based on race, creed or color. I don't suggest that you try that one at home. Absolute nonsense.

This particular case is predicated on the fact that flying an American flag was allowed. The whole case is about which VERSION of the flag you can fly. And since the Federal Gov't statute allows any version of the American flag to be counted as an American flag, then this is an open and shut case.

I do understand about HOA's having rules like no pets or no kids. And if you choose to live there then you should play by the rule.

But in this one case, the HOA already allows the American flag to be flown. There is no stipulation as to what version. Since there is no rule against what Mr. Renner (and the Federal Gov't) considers an American flag then he is within his rights.

@Nevinrip: Okay. I understand what tact you are on.

Weird that I'm reading this topic. We are in the process of switching cable companies. When we called, the third question she asked was if we had a HOA. I said no, and the rep said if we had. We would have to get permission from the HOA for them to install the dish on our roof.

so it made wonder, who in their right mind would live in a place that has an HOA??? You might as well be renting an apartment. lol

Cyrus, I have no idea who McKenzie is, but he could not be more wrong.

This person:

link

Either way this case goes, I would never live in one of these communities.

I had to google Betsey Johnson, then wished I hadn't.

As for the HOAs, yeah, you sign the paper, you agreed, you don't get to complain. Except for two things.

First, you get to complain when they make pointless complaints. One stick out of place and you get a letter. No one complained, your neighbors didn't notice, but they walk around looking for something and don't stop until they've found something, somewhere, to write about. Gross violations, send a letter, sure. Someone complains, send a letter, absolutely. But an "infraction" only spotted by someone out looking for trouble? Give it a rest.

Second, if their rules actually get in the way of your civil rights you can go ahead and break the rules. Think Freedom Riders, etc.

Cyrus, That makes two of us. Never.

As for McKenzie…well, Chicago University, political science…quelle surprise!!

I'm the President of my HOA.

We have a "no signage and no front yard flags" rule in place. I use a 72 hour grace period that takes effect after delivering verbal or written warning of non-compliance.

It usually works well. Want a garage sale? 3 days works. "Lordy Lordy Look Who Turned 40" is usually played out on day 3. Vote For Pedro doesn't work out so well, but there's an exception for Realtor signs that lets Pedro's supporters sell and go elsewhere.

And then there's the Horribly Inconvenienced Patriots…

A flag mounted on the side of the house isn't good enough for the Horribly Inconvenienced Patriots. A flag pole like the one in my backyard, the focal point of my garden, isn't good enough either. Nope, Horribly Inconvenienced Patriots want thirty foot poles in their front yards despite knowing that they aren't acceptable under the HOA rules.

Hey, I don't like many of the rules either, including the flag pole restriction, but since the Horribly Inconvenienced Patriots refuse to help amend these rules because they're too busy trying to find ways to be uptight about everything, I end up having to bring fines, cops, and everything else in my tool box to bear against them. Hell, I only ran for the Presidency in order to stop a small group of lunatics from taking control and enforcing a poorly-written rule to make it require thrice-weekly grass cuttings. Who the heck wants to mow their lawn three times a week?

It isn't always the HOA's fault. You move into the cookie cutter neighborhood, you get the cookie cutter rules as part of the package. If you want to change them, then I wish you luck and warn you that you're going to have to work your tail off to make it happen. Most neighborhoods require 75% of homes voting in favor of the change, and I can't even get 3/4 of the residents in my neighborhood to admit they're alive.

I'll also speak out in favor of HOAs. As Valator says, there are some silly rules and restrictions, but overall, HOAs do good work.

If nothing else, they prevent your neighbors from lowering your property values by clear-cutting all of the trees on their property, turning their front yards into open-air automobile junkyards, or surrounding their entire yard with an 8-foot-high cinder-block wall. (All things that have been tried – unsuccessfully – by people in my neighborhood.)

If you want to be able to do any of those things on your own property without restriction, fine, then don't move into a house that's covered by an HOA.

The Constitution is difficult to ammend, as it should be.
It looks like HOAs are even more so.
It seems to me that the HIPs should work to get their 30' poles allowed by going about it democratically. I bet they are the first to howl about judges making rulings etc. If the flagpole represents what our soldiers died for, they also died for changing rules through the democratic process.
So run for a seat on the Board.
Or read the contract and ask questions before you move in.