CptKremmen | 13 Jun 2014 4:49 a.m. PST |
OK I realise this is a bit of an early notification, but we have just agreed the floor plan for the traders so I thought I would share it with you. Whilst we have lost one or two traders from last year, many of our existing traders have taken larger tables so they can bring more of their stock and we have several new traders as well. We have managed to utilise an extra 3 tables in the main hall and Great Escape Games have opted for a nice big stand in the Bring and Buy hall. For anyone who remembers they were there in 2012. The link to a copy of the floorplan is below :- link I will update and repost if there are any changes, but it is currently firmed up. Alphabetical (ish) list of confirmed traders is as follows :- adler mins ancient and modern anitas books Ainsty Castings Antenociti Workshop baccus black scorpian miniatures caliver books Citadel Six Colonel Bills Commission Figurines coritani magnetic bases Crooked Dice curteys miniatures & 1st Corps Dark Realm Miniatures david lanchester books Elite Wargames em4 miniatures empress miniatures essex miniatures Frontline Miltary Books (Paterchurch) Glenbrook Games great escape games gripping beast Gringo 40s ground zero games grubby tanks harfields military figs Heroics and Ros instant armies kallistra K R muiticase lancashire games lesleys bits box magister militum millenium MJ Figures minimi mutineer miniatures newline designes parkfield miniatures pendraken perry/dave thomas peter pig Prodos products for wargames Rapier mins redoubt enterprises r h models s and a scenics sergents mess 20mm Zone incorporating shell hole scenics & Early War Miniatures shq simple miniatures stafford games Stonewall Miniatures tablescape terrain warehouse / Battlezone Miniatures the last valley the plastic soldier com the scene the square timecast tumbling dice urban construts Warbases Wargames Emporium warlord games Warmacre/Baker Company Warmill Figs in comfort / Westwind Please note early war miniatures and shell hole scenics have merged to form one stand at the show. The merger relates to the show, I have no idea what their business arrangements are. A few words about some of the new traders :- Antenociti Workshop will be here this year with all their awesome 28mm sci fi range. I don't think they will have all of their incredible scenic and modelling accessories so if you want any of these make sure you put an order in with them for pick up at the show. (I will be) Citadel six is a new trader with us, though many of you will be familiar with their lovely heraldic devices Frontline military books / Paterchurch missed a year in 2013 but are back with us now. M J Figures are new to us and have an excellent range of 15mm and 20mm historical figures Minimi have a range of largely 20mm WW2 models plus some lovely 28mm pirate boats. The Square are back with us this year with their excellent range of scenic accessories. Last and personally my favourite, Prodos will be with us with their Aliens V Predator boxed miniatures game, I like many of you invested a lot of money in the kickastarter and am eagerly awaiting my delivery. I am a little unsure on the timescales for delivery but am fairly sure they will have lots of Aliens, predators and colonial marines with them on the day. Please check with them nearer the time regarding exactly what stock they will have with them. Dont't forget that we still have all our old favourites. Most of them are pretty much exactly where they always are so you can find them. Peter pig has been moved to the right of the hall (at his request) to a nicer more spacious stand. Yours Andy Watkins (CptKremmen) |
Huscarle | 13 Jun 2014 10:24 a.m. PST |
That's a good list, and I'll be popping over from down the road to have a butchers (and spend some of my ill-gotten gains). |
CptKremmen | 13 Jun 2014 2:48 p.m. PST |
I really do think we have a very good line up this year, please do come over and spend as much money as you can. Remember that our policy is "Women and children free". Sorry that does not mean we have any women or children to give away, it only refers to their entry fee :) For adult males, the entrance fee is only £5.00 GBP See you in November. |
Marc the plastics fan | 15 Jun 2014 6:41 a.m. PST |
So women wargamers get in free? Surely you are intending to create a family ticket style policy as a fairer approach
But looks excellent. This year I think I will skip SELWG and try you for a change. |
Vespasian28 | 15 Jun 2014 7:49 a.m. PST |
The "women and children free" policy is, I think, to encourage family outings and it does not bother me if that rare beast, the female wargamer, gets in free. I certainly bring my daughter along each year to have a go at the participation games. |
CptKremmen | 15 Jun 2014 9:31 a.m. PST |
It is indeed to encourage family visits, if dad can bring his son along and his wife and daughter to see what all the fuss is about then all the better. They are more likely to come along if they don't have to pay. I have taken my wife to another show (that isn't running this year) and was disgusted that they insisted she pay full price to come in, when clearly she had no interest and was just with me before we went on somewhere afterwards together. |
Bad Squiddo Games | 18 Jul 2014 4:07 a.m. PST |
Is the women and children free policy even legal? The above posts make sense but it assumes the women and children have no interest to begin with as a sweeping generalisation, creating segregation. There must be a different way to do it, such as discounted family tickets? What if a gay man wants to bring his non wargaming partner? What if he wants to bring his grandad to show him what it's all about? I got in a bit of an embarressed fluster last year as I came by myself unaware of this policy, and thought the door chaps were joking when they said I didn't have to pay. I'm a wargamer, same as the guy who was in the queue behind me, so why should he pay and I get in free? It's gender discrimination surely? I insisted on paying only to be made to feel really uncomfortable about it. I had a great weekend there with everything else but it left a bitter taste and general perturbness. I raised it on Twitter at the time and had many agreements. It seems like a very archaic policy, even if created with the best of intentions. I often see threads on gaming forums bemoaning the lack of female gamers but when you turn up to a wargames show to be laughed at, inspected for prescence of a husband, laughed at and then told that women only come here because they drive their husbands. .. come on guys. For the people who are actually just driving their husbands (or wives!) I'm sure there could be like a gamer & non gamer ticket, or access to coffee seats but not stalls. . in a way that it doesn't get exploited. I'll be there this year, and paying again, so happy to chat it further, I meant to say something at the time but was too angry, Cheers Annie (Woman) |
Bad Squiddo Games | 18 Jul 2014 4:17 a.m. PST |
Also the "they might want to check it out and who knows it might create more wargamers" isn't a very solid argument the more I think about it. Assuming you are a wife of a wargamer, you will already have seen piles if sprue and book floating about everywhere and should know by now whether you're interested enough to shell out that fiver or sit in the cafe. An analogy. Harry Potter Studios is about £30.00 GBP a ticket, you could say free entry to partners who are just coming along for the crack.. who knows. . You might get more Harry Potter fans out of it! Well.. the films and books are out there so if they haven't expressed interest previously, chances are you'll be dragging them round as they lament "another broomstick" They can however, sit in the cafe for free. ;-) |
Stuart at Great Escape Games | 18 Jul 2014 7:12 a.m. PST |
Apparently, when I was little, I thought that girls didn't poo. |
CptKremmen | 19 Jul 2014 9:33 a.m. PST |
Hi Annie, I did hear that one woman came in and insisted on paying even though they were offered free entry. I must say only one woman refused free entry so I think there is a strong chance it was you. Whilst I can see your point of view if you want to get seriously "PC" that just isn't the way we run our club. We unanimously voted it would be a good gesture to allow women and children in free and have no intention of changing it. I am really sorry you were made to feel uncomfortable about paying, that was never our intention, far from it, I think the guys at the desk were just a little surprised you did not want to come in for free, we had never had anyone refuse free entry before. I still find it far more annoying when people try to rip me off by charging my wife who is not the target audience full price. I am a hetrosexual man, should i be invited by a gay friend to a gay trade event (of some sort) and at entry he said "Oh he's straight so he doesn't have to pay" I would be very pleased about it. I would not feel slighted that I was allowed in free because I wasn't "Gay" enough. Likewise if my wife took me to some crafty, girly thing, if I were offered free entry as a "spectator" I wouldf be more than happy about it. We are not in any way anti women wargamers, quite the opposite, we have a small number of female members at our club and would like to encourage more. Likewise many of our members are middle aged or older males so we try to find ways to encourage younger members, though for legal reasons we have to be very careful about younger members. Anyway the important thing is you came to the show and enjoyed it. And also intending to come again this year, I really hope you enjoy the show and will have a word with the chaps on the desk not to make you feel awkward about paying. For any other women or children coming, admission is (optionally) free. Yours Andy Trade Organiser Warfare |
Marc the plastics fan | 20 Jul 2014 6:11 a.m. PST |
Nope, don't follow all of that. My point was (half in jest, but the more I think about it) – pay to get on, great, Create a family ticket, great. Give women free entry – nope, seems sexist. The family ticket idea would cover "wives and girlfriends" (although why anyone would bring both together I hesitate to think), whereas girl gamers would pay as normal. Simples. Not sure how your policy would cater for the gay partner scenario – does the non-gaming partner have to declare himself at the entrance, and then get free entry, or do they have to pay as a bloke? Gamers should pay, sex irrelevant (and when I am playing, that holds true), non-gaming sufferers nice if free. Same with children – if I bring my 12 year old to a show, it is for child care reasons not because he is a gamer. Family tickets work better for me. |
CptKremmen | 20 Jul 2014 7:50 a.m. PST |
Hi Marc, I am struggling to follow the logic, help me out. Currently if a man and wife and 2 children arrived we would let them in for £5.00 GBP Your proposal is a family ticket for let's say £10.00 GBP which allows 2 adults and limitless children in free? That is costing them double? If 2 men came in currently we would expect both to pay £10.00 GBP, if they said but we are a family I am the "female" and should not pay I have no idea what we would do, possibly let them in without paying for the 2nd? but the gentleman would have been embarrassed by explaining the situation. if we had a family ticket and 2 men arrived then i don't see how they would gain anything, they could claim they were gay and get a family ticket for £10.00 GBP or pay for 2 single tickets for £10.00 GBP Plus they could bring children with them in either case? I honestly am bemused why people are offended we allow children and women in free, I will ensure that anyone who wants to pay can still pay. The number of "abuses" of the system is tiny and we are prepared to foot the bill for the occasional female wargamer who gets in without having to pay. Our policy does not cost anyone else anything, it's only us losing out and we thought and still do think it is a "nice thing to do". Old fashioned perhaps but I don't see that as a bad thing. The club has no intention of changing it's policy, we are not hurting anyone, and am in fact allowing in a lot of people free, how can that be hurting anyone? If we started charging full price for women and children it would not reduce the price of the ticket for anyone else, it just means we would very greedily pocket more money. Unlike some shows we are not run for any one persons profit, Warfare is very proud of being a club show, no one makes a penny out of it, as trade organiser I put in almost 100 hours a year completely unpaid, all the money goes to running our club for the year so people of all ages and sexes can enjoy a years wargaming for a very reasonable £30.00 GBP membership fee. Perhaps we should introduce a little survey on the door this year and ask the public if they want a family ticket instead of the current policy. I suppose if the majority of people WANT to pay more to get in then we could introduce it, but I am really not in favour at all. |
Dorchester Bede | 20 Jul 2014 2:40 p.m. PST |
I and a friend have been going to Warfare for years, so long that I can't remember the exact year but I think since 1992. Our usual format is that I drive up to his on the Friday we have a game Friday afternoon and on Saturday his wife drives us to Reading, drops us of at Warfare and goes into Reading to undertake her Christmas shopping, meet a friend, have a nice lunch and return to the show and pick us up. In all the years she has never been charged to enter the show because the guys at Reading take what is in the end not only the pragmatic decision that she she is not a wargamer but the correct decision that she is not. I suppose with modern technology she could simply sit outside and text to say she was there but I don't think that is the point. I have three daughters all of whom have shown no interest in wargaming but then again nor has my son. I would hate for some kind of tokenism to prevent my friends wife from coming into the venue as surely this would be a form of discrimination for whilst she has no interest in the hobby her husband does and for that reason she sees a value in it. I don't think we should make comparisons with such places as Harry Potter Land or whatever it is called, my partner and three daughters have been there and had a great time but I don't think we should compare that with an annual hobby event. As a hobby wargaming does appear to be primarily practiced by white middle aged males (I can't cement on sexual orientation because I simly don't know) and does need to appeal to a younger, gender and racial mixed audience to expand – but I'm not sure a more rigid policy re charging for entry to everyone will do this. Perhaps Reading should say they are promoting the hobby by allowing free entry to all women or people under the age on 16. I'm guessing Annie does have a point in that an assumption was made that she did not play (I'm assuming there are more female player in fantasy then historical gaming but I could be wrong) but think by charging everyone the same entry would not promote the hobby. |
Stuart at Great Escape Games | 20 Jul 2014 3:32 p.m. PST |
There are plenty of gay wargamers, just like there are plenty of gay police officers and plenty of gay postal workers. I'm a white, 40 year old and my perception is that there are a hell of a lot of young wargamers, though I think that there is a stronger representation within the historical genres of white, middle aged males. I love Warfare and love the organisers (Andy rules!) and, as a trader, have always found them welcoming and helpful. Warfare is a great show. There's an interesting debate in here about wider perceptions and gender inequality. There's another debate about whether bringing non-wargaming partners has a tendency to reduce the amount of time and, more importantly, the amount of purchases, amongst gamers…can't "sneak it past the wife" is she's there watching… |
Stuart at Great Escape Games | 20 Jul 2014 3:34 p.m. PST |
Oh, if you haven't been to the Reading show, it's in November, the details are here – link – and it's one of the very best on the calendar. |
Sgt Steiner | 20 Jul 2014 4:35 p.m. PST |
Great list of traders as ever but have to ask which are the traders AWOL this year ? Fighting 15s and Black Hat ? |
Bad Squiddo Games | 21 Jul 2014 2:40 a.m. PST |
Hey Andy/Warfare, Firstly I'm sorry to derail the thread with the issue, with hindsight I should have started a new topic, as it isn't a policy exclusive to Warfare. It will probably end up becoming one of these things we have to agree to disagree. I just thought it was worth adding my tuppence, as there is a policy supposed to encourage female wargamers, and as a female wargamer, it did the opposite and discouraged me, so I figured that would be useful feedback. I'm all for everybody being treated equally in instances where it has no bearing. Genitals aren't involved/relevant in the sport of tabletop wargaming, (usually, horror stories aside!)so I'd like to be treated the same as any other gamer. As kind and well intentioned as some gestures can be, they are still creating seperatism. And I would feel like a massive hypocrite banging on about this sort of thing, then going "woohoo free ticket for being a girl!" I can't think of anywhere else in life where you get in free to just have a wander. To carry along the line of simple sterotypes, should men get free cinema tickets to rubbish chick flicks they're being dragged along to? I can't stand Formula 1, but can I just come in and have a look around the pit lane as my dad wants to go… Perhaps this is something that would be great adopting at other places/situations, I haven't given it enough thought to comment. Anyway I guess we draw a line on it, as we'll probably end up going around in circles, and such discussions are prone to massive misunderstanding/offence on both sides due to the rubbish medium of the written word. I fully appreciate all the work you do with Warfare and that all of this is drawn from the best of intentions. And as much as several people have agreed with me, I think effectively, from however many years of Warfare, I appear to be the only person having more than a mild discontent at it, so as the tiny minority, I'll go grumble away quietly into the corner now ;-) Apologies for derailing the thread, I'm happy to have a casual chat about it over a beer in person if you are interested further (I'm actually rather nice when not ranting about being given things for free) if not, happy to leave it there. ---- AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT… I was about to ask for further information on the Saga tournament, but just had a look and it's not listed, is that not running this year? Cheers Annie |
StaffordGames | 21 Jul 2014 2:45 a.m. PST |
The organisers have tried to do something positive which would encourage wargamers to bring their partners and children (wargamers or otherwise)to the show and thus make it more affordable but the PC brigade have to get on their high horse and create a fuss about it! On the other hand Andy I don't think that your partner can expect to get in to other shows for free just because she is a woman. |
Bad Squiddo Games | 21 Jul 2014 2:58 a.m. PST |
It's political correctness gone mad! ;-) |
James Biggs | 21 Jul 2014 6:05 a.m. PST |
Wow! And here I was thinking we live in the 21st Century. Giving free tickets to women and not to men is discrimination. Plain and simple. It's illegal under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. It doesn't matter if you say it's about showing an interest in wargaming. It's still illegal. Yes there are less women who play wargames then men. Then again there are less non white war gamers as well. So would you give free tickets to non white war gamers? As they show less of an interest? What about gay couples? Do they have to prove to you they are gay and that one of them is the "women" and doesn't have an interest in the gaming side? Do you really want to put off gay gamers so much? Frankly this whole idea is ludicrous, people who want to enter the show should have to pay regardless if they are female or male. That's life. Children can still go free as long as both male children and female children can go in for free. |
CptKremmen | 21 Jul 2014 10:41 a.m. PST |
Annie – I would love to meet you at warfare this year, sure we can have a fascinating chat. I will be an overweight middle aged chap in an orange shirt and glasses wandering around looking lost, grab me and say hello James – I have sought legal advice and our policy is legally "Positive discrimination" which is entirely legal unlike negative discrimination. So don't worry we aren't breaking the law. Agree this discussion has probably achieved all it is going to. Ta Andy |
Jimlad48 | 21 Jul 2014 11:32 a.m. PST |
I suppose the question is 'how much would Warfare take if it charged everyone full price, and how much could entry be reduced by as a result'. If its a case of letting women in is massively inflating the (in my mind very reasonable) admission price, then there is an argument to look again. I would suggest a minor change would be to go for a 'suggested donation' for women and children – perhaps saying 'no charge but would you like to make a donation to our affiliated charity instead'? Many London museums do this encouraging donations. That said, Warfare is a fabulous show and definitely a high spot in my calendar and I'm already looking forward to it :-) |
CptKremmen | 21 Jul 2014 11:36 a.m. PST |
Annie, There was going to be a Saga tournament I think there may have been some problem finding someone prepared to run it, not sure I will ask. Andy |
CptKremmen | 21 Jul 2014 11:48 a.m. PST |
Sgt Steiner, Sorry your question got lost. I decided to be "positive" and list the traders who were attending and highlighting the new traders rather than dwelling on those who for very varying reasons were not attending :) But here's the list of traders not attending who attended last year (apologies if I have the list wrong) AW Miniatures Blackhat & Fighting 15's Dixons OG Games QRF/TSS Each will be missed but on the positive light it has freed up space for some fresh faces. Out of interest we lose about half a dozen traders a year and gain the same number, often a trader misses just a year or two for varying reasons, often medical, and then reattends the following year. Hope that helps Andy |
James Biggs | 21 Jul 2014 12:51 p.m. PST |
Ok so what you're doing may not be illegal due to recent law changes on discrimination. Still not really promoting equality are you? So just confirming though if my male partner wants to come to the event does he have to pay? He's not interested in wargaming though. And how do I go about getting this free ticket if it is free? Thanks James |
StaffordGames | 21 Jul 2014 3:02 p.m. PST |
Unless your partner is under 16 or female they don't appear to fit the criteria for free entry! |
Supercilius Maximus | 22 Jul 2014 10:29 a.m. PST |
Why not simply state that every ticket is a "family" ticket, and if anyone who has bought a ticket wishes to bring their spouse/partner and children along, they can. |