"Game 16 of Vietnam Skirmish Campaign" Topic

All,

It's the morning of 8 January 1968, and the squad is hurting, but there's a job to do. They're leading the assault into the NVA-held town of Kham Duc. To accomplish this task they've been reinforce with armor from the 25th Infantry Divison. The squad has one M-48 and two M-113s in direct support. Bravo and Charlie Companies are in blocking position to the east on Hwy 14, sealing off any support from the outside, while Alpha punches into the city from the east. Due to heavy casualties, the 25th is taking an 'operational pause' to regroup and reorganize in the north, west, and south.

Sgt Malone, now running the show, rounds the men up and gets them ready.

Overview, north is up. The east edge of Kham Duc is at far left, and is occupied by the enemy. The NVA also have infantry at top (north) and bottom (south) center, while the squad enters from the right (east), right down Hwy 14.

In Kham Duc, a recoiless rifle team (it looks funny, you see two heads because the gunner and assistant are practically on top of each other).

On the north side of Hwy 14, Kruczek, Thomas (w/M-79), Hinkle, and Bradley (w/M-60). Sgt Malone is on the road behind the tank. I don't usually put unit markings on my vehicles because I like to use them for various units/periods, but I couldn't help myself. If you look at the M-113 you can see my feeble attempt at the 25th ID's "Electric Strawberry." (the vehicles look kinda goofy as I haven't given them a wash yet)

South side of Hwy 14: Bradshaw (now S&D4), Kolb, and Abercrombie. Kolb has been in enough fights to be S&D4, so has Thomas, but they've both been so shaky. That is, fantastic one mission, then break your heart the next…

The fight starts with the enemy recoiless rifle (bottom center firing on the tank, and missing by a hair.

Then the south NVA slam an RPG into the M-113 there. Bradshaw goes prone and, amazingly (I've been notoriously bad at spotting rolls for the squad in past games), spots the NVA on the hill. For this he receives a bunch of NVA fire, though it all misses. Then the ridiculous strikes again; the third NVA rifleman on the hill opens up, puts Kolb down and seriously wounds Abercrombie. @#$%!!! The track tests and decides to sit tight and think things over (yes, I believe in having vehicles make morale tests too)…

For the rest of the story, please check the blog:
link

V/R,
Jack

I really enjoy reading these posts, keep it up.

Excellent stuff again Jack…I agree with Blue the armour looks smashing on the table. Very entertaining and its great to see people appreciating how good these are and how much work you put in… I can't even begin to imagine the amount of carpet cleaner you must go through in a week…I'm sorry Jack: I can only maintain a certain wholesomeness for so long ;)It's nice to build you up only so I can drop you from a greater height ;)

Won't be around for a while with heading to Toronto tomorrow morn and actually moving house whenI get back…I get a shiver just thinking about it: my whole games room needs to be packed up :( My niece coming right after that so you'll be glad to hear I'll be taking a considerable break from all things gaming.

Anyway in all seriousness all the best Jack with new baby and I guess I'll have a lot of catching up to do with your games when I get back…

Thanks for all the work you've put into some very entertaining AAR's…keep up the good work… ;)

Carpet cleaner a quick run over with the vac should do the trick……….the battle seem more realistic wihout so many helios tipping the balance every time

Love this whole series. But wonder about the many inaccurate fires(not just missing but by hundreds of feet!). Were the grenade throwers, LMGs, and RPGs and other weapons that inaccurate in the war? Did their sights not work very well? Or was precision sacrificed to hosing area targets? I understand the sighting rules, but once zeroed in shouldn't the weapons be pretty accurate?

Of course it could just be bad dice rolls…

Kyote-John,

"And leave the village to be reoccupied." Yeah, so you see the problem too. And costly this problem would prove to be… Regarding air, arty, and battalion mortars, you say they are lacking, do you mean lacking as in mostly not a part of my games? I assume that's what you're talking about as there's only been one game where friendly supporting fires were used on-board. Here goes…

First, in my humble opinion (based on several close relatives, a few friends, and many of my senior leaders being Vietnam combat veterans, as well as quite a bit of reading, both personal and professional while in the Corps), the idea that US infantry in contact overwhelmingly relied on supporting fires to decide a firefight is way overblown. Every situation is going to be different, but, by and large, infantry were the arm of decision for the myriad, innumerable firefights that occurred.

I think the general public is thrown by the idea that 'X' battalion is taking part in Operation "Blah Blah Blah," in heavy contact with the NVA, and supporting fires broke the back of the enemy resistance. The fact enemy resistance had its back broken by a flight of F-4s that dropped napalm on their assembly area, or by naval gunfire that pummeled the enemy logistical tail into dust, is absolutely true. What that fails to capture is the fact the battalion has three rifle companies of three rifle platoons of three rifle squads, or 27 ten-man rifle squads running around, many of them involved in small firefights like the ones I've been showing here. There is not enough supporting fires to go around.

Another reason for the lack of supporting fires occurring during my games is the timescale. Each one of the battle reports represents five to fifteen minutes of real time. Contact is made and both sides seek a quick advantage to end the fight. A big part of the initial firefight for leadership on both sides to figure out exactly what they're facing and decide what to do about it. If the VC/NVA figure they're dealing with something they don't want to, they're going to break contact to escape to live and fight another day. Same for the US, though in this case our squad has the rest of the platoon coming up to help, as well as supporting fires coming on line (if warranted).

So, the initial fight happens and the squad 'wins' the fight; that means one of two thing: either the NVA/VC were small in number at that location and were defeated, or there were more off-table, but instead of reinforcing a bad situation they bugged out.

Conceptually, if the squad has its initial burst of fire, takes some casualties and gets its butt kicked, it would fall back to the platoon (as it's coming forward) and call in supporting fires, which occur after the time represented in the batrep. We haven't really seen this because, while the squad has taken a lot of casualties, it's never really been pushed off a piece of terrain. Arguably, the one time I used arty for an on-table strike, what really should have happened is, Banaszak has the squad collect its wounded to the best of its ability then fall back off the board, then air/arty falls on the enemy village. I didn't do that because we had taken so many casualties that dragging them back wasn't really an option, so, just like real life, the remaining members hit the dirt (with a couple bugging out) to protect their buddies, and they called in arty 'danger close,' i.e., right on top of themselves.

Which ties directly into the last reason for supporting fires not happening in my games: scale, both time and distance. First, anything hitting on the table is not only danger close, in real life it's decimating the whole board, whether it's a 500-pound bomb or a 105mm barrage. Even US 81mm mortars would tear the hell out of the small area represented on the board (I let the NVA use single 82mm mortars, not barrages by a section of three or four of them, for this reason). Regarding time scale, again, one of these battles is only a few minutes, so in real life, the initial call for fire would go out a couple turns after the initial volley (giving the squad leader time to figure out he's in trouble), followed by marking the target (air) or spotting rounds (arty/mortars) right before pulling back and the batrep finishing a few turns later, then fire for effect, which would occur after the batrep finished (i.e., no US forces on the board).

I hope that makes sense, answers your question, and does it without sounding like an ;)

V/R,
Jack

Panda – Thanks man, safe travels, and don't worry, I'll be here to make fun of your sissy ass when you get back ;)

103 Club and Hammerhead – Welcome fellas, glad you're liking the batreps. Oh, and you want in on the making fun of my hills, eh? Be advised that I return (silly, internet) fire ;)

But I need to address this as I'm not following you:
"…the battle seem more realistic wihout so many helios tipping the balance every time."
What do you mean? I can't think of any battle where I used helos for anything but, essentially, props. Once I used a downed helo as an objective, and twice the squad used a helo as a means of insertion; to date, there has not been a single helicopter that fired a shot.

Now, here recently I did use an arty fire mission for the first time, and admittedly, I used it to save the squad as it was about to get overrun, but that's the only time I ever did that (and I believe it was warranted as I didn't want my campaign to end!). Are you mistaking my batreps with someone else's, or am I misunderstanding?

V/R,
Jack

James Woods,

Welcome, glad to hear from you. Regarding the misses, well, that's been an issue I'm having problems with myself. First, let me set the table:
-The first issue is the rules are written for 28mm on a 6' x 4' table, but I'm playing with 10mm troops on a 3' x 2' table. As with most rules I play, I don't change the groundscale as I think the movement and engagement ranges look realistic with 10mm troops.
-The second issue is that I wouldn't include LMGs in this; they hit or miss just like rifles or pistols hit or miss (the firer's skill level against the target's skill level with modifiers for moving/stationary/prone/different types of cover), so I don't have any issues there.
-When you fire a grenade launcher, mortar, RPG, or throw a grenade, you roll to hit much like rifles/MGs/pistols, but if you miss, you have another roll sequence to go through, which I wholeheartedly agree with. We don't tend to worry too much about 5.56 or 7.62mm rounds go when they miss, it's a big world, but absolutely we need to know where that explosive projectile went, as it could miss the targeted spot but still affect the target, or even affect someone else.

So, when you miss, the procedure is to roll a direction and a distance, and that's where the round lands, affecting anyone nearby. The way you figure out the distance is half a D20 in inches. So, ultimately, with a bad roll your grenade can miss by a whopping 10 inches! Again, not that big an issue maybe with 28mm, but I've had to re-work it for 10mm, and 10 inches really looks like a long way with this size men on a board that's only 24 inches deep and 36 inches wide.

Recently I've been using D6 inches instead of 1/2 D20 inches, but with a terrible roll you can still miss by 6 inches. And I'm fond of making terrible rolls. I think it's working pretty well, but I admit getting aggravated when I miss by 6" with a hand grenade. Sure an inch only a couple yards, but if I miss with a hand grenade 36 feet I've got some real problems ;)

I've been thinking about sticking with D6" for fired weapons (RPGs, grenade launchers), but going with 1/2 D6" for hand grenades.

You mention accuracy issues, I don't have any issues with the overall accuracy for fired weapons. Misses happen more often than hits, even in today's combat with advanced sights and weapons, much less with iron sighted rifles, oversized shotguns (M-79s), and rudimentary rocket launchers (RPGs). Then throw in close, heavy terrain, moving/acting/reacting very quickly, and, best of all, getting shot at, and there will be misses, some very badly. I complain about it in my batreps, but that's simply me lamenting my bad dice rolling, not the rules being screwed up.

The last thing to mention would be that, again, some of this can be blamed on me. That is, within the rules there is a mechanism to improve your aim, which, of course, would result in fewer misses. However, I rarely use this as I personnely prefer more chances to fire rather than statistically better shot. I.e., my M-79 grenadier can take slow and careful aim, thus giving himself a better chance to hit his target, or, he can fire, reload, and fire again. I'm in the latter camp, which is great except when you miss twice, then roll two 6's for distance…

I hope that sheds some light on the issue. Thanks for commenting.

V/R,
Jack

Kyote-John,

Good to go man. The fights are sharp and quick, so the only time I'll use air/arty during the game is if it's the only way to save the squad from elimination. Think the Colonel in "We Were Soldiers" calling 'Broken Arrow.' A US force is about to be overrun, everyone drop what you're doing and render immediate support.

So, a couple games ago the squad had a guy down on the trail and two more pinned (facing an HMG in the ville), three guys pinned on the right (facing about a dozen NVA), and three guys down on the left (facing about a dozen NVA), that was a 'Broken Arrow'-type situation, so arty was made immediately available. The squad sheltered in place while Banaszak called it in, saving their asses, while the rest of the platoon moved up to reinforce and the remaining platoons of the company moved into place to support.

Back to our timescale, the platoon is moving along a trail in line of squads. Our squad is on point and in the kill zone. Actually, if you recall, the whole squad wasn't even in the kill zone, only the point element, and Banaszak misread the situation. He thought he'd be able to flank the enemy, so he tried a double envelopment, sending three troops left and three troops right. Both flanking elements immediately ran into hordes of NVA in the jungle to each side of the trail.

Upon hearing firing up ahead, the other two squads of 1st Platoon take a knee while the platoon commander (platoon leader in the Army) screams for sitreps on the radio, trying to figure out what's happening. In real life Ban would tell him to wait one while he tried to figure it out, then all of a sudden Ban has heavy fighting happening to front, right, and left.

The PC would be sitting tight, still trying to figure out what to do; he knows he doesn't want to walk straight up the trail unless there's no other choice, but he doesn't know if he should flank left or right, and even if he does, moving up on the left or right is going to take a helluva lot of time to bust brush (travelling off trail through the jungle).

By the time Ban figures out they're in a bad way and let the LT know what's going on, the fight it almost over; that is, the squad is very close to being wiped out (once the NVA on the flanks move forward, certainly on the squad's left, where Ban was the only guy left), the only choices will be to die in place or fall back to the rest of the platoon, leaving the wounded where they fell. Or call for the highest priority supporting fires to save the squad's ass.

Arty fire comes in, enemy's back is broken by two on-target fire missions (very lucky the spotting rounds hit pretty much on target, not needing to be adjusted). 1st Platoon moves up to secure Banaszak's squad and evac the wounded. A few options for the other platoons; maybe 2nd moves up and clears the village while 3rd provides security/reserve, or maybe the company commander puts 2nd and 3rd on line to sweep through the village, etc…

No matter what, short of the remaining two squads double timing straight up the trail to rescue Banaszak's squad (and probably getting whacked), there's no way friendly forces are getting there in time to do anything to help.

So, there's a peek into all the real-life stuff that's happening at the periphery/just off the table whilst we are focused in on the antics of ten or so men.

In that regard, the only thing I'd like to do, or wish I could do differently, is spend more time with the squad leader and his radio operator (RTO) to show some of this. On the one hand, it would show the real-world stuff the squad leader (or the second in charge, if the SL is down) has to take care of. On the other, it would take two men out of every fight (SL and RTO), as they can't be running around, throwing grenades, dragging wounded buddies out of the line of fire, and shooting when they are supposed to be talking on the radio… On the logistical side, I don' have a suitable RTO figure… I could see doing it in a platoon-level game, probably not squad level.

V/R,
Jack

Sorry mate, I was thinking of other batreps where a flight of heuycrobras would be the main part of the U.S. order of battle . Doing it your way there seems more tension to the outcome.
I went to a multi -period re-acting event that featured a Veit-Nam display of troops and weapons, one of the blokes I spoke to explained a lot about the development of certain infantry weapons over the span of the war.

Armoured vechicles? 155mm artillery? Things are escalating. In a good way. I am surprised you have managed this many varied games. I have no idea on more scenario ideas for you, though I suspect FNF would have a few. If you have played more games, I am not sure if anyone survives at all. I await the writeups to see if I am correct. Keep up the good work and I got in two games while you got in 16! but I have a feeling that will get reversed very soon now :-)

I also note that the rules you are using are now on WargameVault; I am likely to get them as they are only $2. USD

Or paypal and a tablet (which is what I am doing)!

Hammerhead – No sweat man, and you're right, much more tension when you can't just snap your fingers and obliterate the whole board. Having said that, I've been getting my ass kicked a lot lately, maybe I need to invest in a flight of Cobras ;)

Shaun – You're right, things have definitely escalated, and I'm about burned out on this. I know, I've said that before, but I mean it this time ;) Mostly it has to do with the fact that I got two games in this morning, and really took it in the shorts both times. I don't mean to spoil my next two batreps, but I'll just let you guys know up front that there's pretty much no one left…

Will you guys still love me if I start a new campaign? ;)

And yes, I received an e-mail: InventedRegiment's rules are available on Wargame Vault. You're killing me Kyote!

V/R,
Jack

No problems on starting a new campaign…'cause I know it wont be for a few months! Unless you were going to really push it on the home front and get in a few more games in the next few days.

Kyote, I am sighing with you too, but maybe not for the same reason…

I do not have a credit card either so do not feel bad. I only stopped using cheques about 3 years ago. So you are in fine company.